Am I being unreasonable about my in-laws?

[spiralBells]

Partly I think I need a rant but I genuinely think I need to hear if I have got this all wrong. Am I being a dick?

Context - my in-laws are nice people. My mother in law is very momsy and mainly likes to clean and cook - which she does a lot. In a lot of ways she is the mum I'd like to have had. They live in Italy we live in the UK. I am English. However, the down side is that they don't have any friends, and want to spend all their time with the family, where they eat and watch TV. Noone has any hobbies in the family, and they don't read, so for me conversation feels very limited. (besides my terrible italian which makes wider family gatherings a 12 hour marathon of not really knowing what's going on)

I am staying with my mother in law for Christmas, which we do every year. I am staying with her for 10 days as I tend to get anxiety after a few days and had agreed with my partner that we wouldn't do more than a week. Now they have invited us to my brother in law's wife's mother's for the 6th Jan (a festive day in Italy) I thought we were leaving on the 5th.Am I being unreasonable to say no?

One of the reasons I get anxiety when I am here is because I find my in-laws a terrible struggle. They are nice people, but I would go as far as saying I don't like them - maybe it is just that I hate spending time with them. To see them for a day would be fine, but they want us to spend weeks at a time living in their house. They invite us on their holidays where they have chosen the location and all the activities (which isn't many). They don't have any conversation, and I worry all the time about offending them as they have a very small view of the world.

The expectation is that we spend a lot of our Christmas time at my brother in-law's apartment because they have a toddler (our nephew). We have no children, and our chances of ever having children are small. If my first miscarriage had carried through to term, our baby would be the same age as our nephew. This is obviously upsetting for me but it is very important to my husband and my mother in law that we spend a lot of time with our nephew. My husband says he understands why I would find this difficult, but he tends to minimise the similarities (for example, his brother's baby was due more than a month after ours and he tends to correct me with this fact to ensure I am not exaggerating the situation.) His family generally don't like to talk about bad things, and the feeling is to think optimistically and then everything will be alright. I have been given this advice actually by my mother in-law.

I thought this week had gone well. I didn't have any panic attacks from awkward encounters, Italian drink driving expeditions or faking smiles for baby photos. But for me, extending the holiday by a single day has pushed me over the edge. Another 12 hours of sitting in a distant family member's apartment for another marathon of smiling at the baby and staring at Italian day time TV.

I told my husband I don't want to go. He has stormed out. I also know that he really misses his parents, and if we hadn't gotten married he would have moved back to be 5 minutes from his parents, and be at their house almost every day. I know I am going to agree to go on the 6th, but I know each time I do this I feel like I am making my life a tiny bit more unbearable. But then I think I am being melodramatic and should just grin and bear it.

Am I being unreasonable?

Did i read correctly that you dont see your family and friends more because the fear of upsetting the in laws (that live in another country?!)

This all sounds very weird...but if it is as you say I would focus on having regular catch up with friends and family (and not just live daily life with husband). Maybe it would help you to feel overall happier and keep you distracted

You need to go to Italian classes and learn the language properly and take your own hobbies when you go and stay with them. Your life will be a misery otherwise. I think it's really unfair to try and keep your husband away from his family just because you feel uncomfortable.

Do you not have a job to get back to? If not then get one, perfect excuse to let him go without you next time.

A good compromise leaves everyone feeling dissatisfied

He compromised to get you to marry him, he views it as compromising everytime he is no spending time with his family. You view any time with the Italian side as a compromise

His family culture is family first. Yours values the individual. Both of you are compromising your fundamental values.

When both are compromising so many of your fundamental requirements
, can either of you be truly happy?

Ten days is too long. I would not want to stay ten days with my own family or indeed anyone. He is being unreasonable. When you get home you need to lay out what you are prepared to do and what you are not. Next year he goes out earlier than you and you come out for a shorter period. He gets used to going alone sometimes. You have a ready made excuse for if you are asked to stay longer and stick to it. I would be very annoyed with him for putting you on the spot especially when he is fully aware of your feelings.

It sounds as if almost all the compromise is on your side at the moment. Sure, your husband would have had a different life if he'd not married you, but you've done your best by agreeing to long family Christmases, and you seem to be expected to put up with your DH correcting you about your miscarriage (which I think is quite hurtful, TBH, even if it may be his way of dealing with it).

What does your husband do to adapt to you and what suits you?

If the answer isn't obvious, then maybe (calmly, at home), you need to ask him. I also think you need to point out that, for you, the miscarriage remains something deeply upsetting and you feel he's minimising your feelings about it. It may be he himself is struggling - and you could acknowledge that and ask him, though he may find it hard to talk about (some people do). But he doesn't get to decide you have to be fine with it, especially not by getting into quibbles about dates. I think you could also come up with some solutions that might help.

Would your in-laws be wildly offended if you were with them but curled up with a book? Would they hate it if you took something to do with your hands? Or, as a PP says, if you went to help cook? Or if you hate those ideas, could you get away with a cheerful smile and 'right, DH, I'm off for a walk, see you all in an hour?' My in-laws (English, FWIW) were of the 'no conversation and staring at the telly' variety and I found I had to develop a bit of a thick skin and insist I was the mildly eccentric one who sat there sewing or cheerfully got up to take DD out for a walk when the TV started to become oppressive.

Having read that you mainly see your husband Italian friends and your mil tries to tell you to spend time only with your husband it sounds like you have bigger issues than this stay. You need to start doing what you want to do.

I’m completely with you @spiralBells . That sort of time scale would be far too much for me. A day of anyone is sufficient for me. You have to meet your own needs in your marriage. Do not be bullied into towing a line that makes you unhappy. 💐

You don't need to suck it up. If you are having panic attacks it is actually making you ill. Your husband can go and see his family on his own. It's his problem if he doesn't want to go without you. You could just fly out to join him for 3-4 days on each trip, or as much as you can manage/actually enjoy (or just don't go!). There is no way you can continue like this for decades!

I used to have a relationship with someone from another, similar sounding culture. I understand exactly what you're going through, OP. I stuck it for 10 years before we split, sorry to say.

Oh the relief never having to see his family again, although they weren't nasty.

My (English) in laws were like this.

I would also make agreements with my then husband which he would break every time.

I got anxious about going because I knew he would insist on more time/break out agreements.

In the end I used to have panic attacks just from going there.

It broke me in the end. I just couldn't do it any more.

And to answer whether we discussed it before marriage - the problem is that we discuss it a lot, we agreed a week max at a time with a break at the end so I wasn't so anxious returning to work. We agreed my husband should go to italy without me on a regular basis. But he won't make the effort unless I go with him, and then every year my husband defaults back to the feeling that only a week at a time is unreasonable, and I should be staying longer

Then this ^ should be adhered to. Especially after all the trauma you've been through

Look after you

As MN says: "No is a complete sentence"

Say it a LOT to DH and all his family

I wonder how many men have panic attacks when visiting in laws. There is a current thread where an ex didn't much like his mother in law which caused them to break up. Posters always advise each other to stick by their mothers rather than partners. A recent thread was about a woman who couldn't get hold of her mother and sister for two hours and she was completely panic stricken. Her mother was fine, she had forgotten her phone but so many posters understood the anxiety of being out of touch with family.

Look, your brain and body are trying to tell you something. Listen!

When you get back to the UK, immediately book a trip to see your friends and family for Easter or whenever you can next get a few days off.

If your DH is too lazy to arrange visits without you, that's on him. And your life in the UK has got absolutely zilch to do with MIL.

Could you arrange some counselling? I'm so sorry about the miscarriages.

For what it's worth, I have slightly similar inlaws (partly less active because they are much older, but the entire family do a heck of a lot of sitting on the sofa) and over the years I've developed the habit of going for walks, encouraging DD to visit the local cycle track regularly, written all my Christmas cards and once in the summer I wrote over 100 UCAS references! This time I did a complicated Lego model...

Christ I think you should think about the the future it sounds like you’ve married the wrong person…has that occurred to you?

IMO you should stick to your original plan and leave on the date you originally intended, just saying politely 'I am sticking to my original plans so I will not be coming on 6th.' Essentially these people are trying to control you and you are allowing it to happen. Your DH sounds like a dick, his insensitivity over the nephew birth date is breathtaking. And as for storming out instead of having a rational conversation with his wife, who should be his number one priority......
Sadly you have married a man who will always put his mother before you. Only you can decide if you prepared to tolerate that any longer, but in your position I would be using very reliable contraception from now while considering my options.
There is nothing like Christmas for crystallising feelings about family, personally i am quietly sorting out my finances in readiness for the next step (AKA getting my ducks in a row).

The rules that you made about visits lasting a week maximum, and your husband visiting by himself sometimes, sound very reasonable. The problem is that they are not happening.
I don't think you should have to stay an extra day. Could your husband book his next visit home now, so he has something to look forward to?
When you are home there are things to discuss. Are you both happy to spend some days apart seeing your own friends/family/working/doing hobbies? Which of these feel okay and how long for? What expectations do you both have for your partner to spend time with your family and friends? When is it appropriate to break agreements you have made like the one week rule? Is it when one person really wants to, when you both agree without pressure, when someone your visiting is very ill?
If you think your husband will always be pushing for longer after arriving, can you arrive 5 days later every trip? You could work those days and have a few extra holiday days at the end to visit your home/friends.

I would be getting an airb and b/hotel and staying close by rather than staying with them next time.10 days is way too long.

I voted YABU, but only because you ( and everyone around you) is being unreasonable in expecting you to live like this.

it is hard to change oneself, but I feel you have to take some deep breaths and try to assert yourself and what you want, work out who you are and what type of life and living situation suits you. Frankly, it doesn’t sound as if this DH and his family are a good fit for your needs.

It’s no one’s fault . There are people who would be raving about the closeness of his family, how lovely it is that they all want to be together, so different from the cold and distant English ( I wouldn’t be one of them). But it’s not for you, so you don’t have to endure it.

I think,you said DH would move back to Italy if it wasn’t for you. Maybe he should, and you have to summon up your courage and work towards a life which you enjoy, and which allows you to flourish, without him.

I wish you all the best.

Edited for a typo btw

Absolutely agree.

I am so fearful of upsetting her that I don't see them very often

Why is this? They don't seem too bothered about your feelings and imposing their ideals on you.

I see 40% have voted yabu! Guarantee, they've not read your updates. Especially his refusal to go without you.

I empathise a lot @spiralBells. DH is Italian, and I understand a lot of the dynamics you describe: him missing home, a week never being ‘long enough’, not wanting to visit alone, language issues even though I do speak Italian, the overbearing MIL, the expectation to ‘be together’ even when it’s deathly dull. I’m also sorry about your miscarriages as that certainly adds an even greater layer of difficulty.

I think as others have said, the issue here is your DH not sticking to what you’ve agreed. I’ve had similar conversations with my husband, and for the first time since we married I didn’t go to visit them in the summer for example. They came here in the autumn but limited to a long weekend. When they next visit us, we’ll have a young baby (fingers crossed) and they have agreed to get an AirBnB as that will make things so much easier. It’s hard but I think you need to try stand up for what you want, while reminding your DH that you had agreed certain ways of doing things. My DH was quite annoyed initially when I said I wasn’t going to Italy in summer 2023, even though he knew that the summer of 2022 had been painful for us both in terms of his parents being difficult and holidays not really being holidays. But I stuck to it, even made some alternative plans for one of the weekends, and he went solo and all was fine.

Once you are there, I have found over the years that you need to insist a little on doing things that give you a break from everything. I went out for runs, found a local swimming pool, would suggest an afternoon in town, etc. I’ve also got better at simply sitting on the couch with my book or Netflix, or in our room. I always appear for mealtimes and will spend other downtime watching tv together etc. but I will also get up at a certain point & say I’m off to bed or whatever. Italians are often quite direct so I’ve found people aren’t necessarily offended as long as you’re balancing it with ‘family time’. You can also play a little on the non-Italianness, like a PP said: when I headed out for a run, swim, walk or whatever (even in December) I’d joke about my odd Northern European ways and that actually seemed to help in terms of them accepting whatever I was doing 😉

This thread has got me thinking about my similar relationship that eventually ran its course. I think there are adjustments to be found IF your OH is reasonable in other ways. Looking back, my opinions and needs were always secondary to those of his family. And by family, I mean a cast of thousands.

No matter how distant, every relative was revered. Whatever my opinion was, it was always wrong until verified by a family member. And his family always knew best, from the right food to eat to the political situation in any given country. I wonder if your OH is like this, too?

Have to say I'm surprised at the posters saying YABU and should suck it up. What you have described sounds awful. Staying with anyone more than a couple of nights is too much, it doesn't matter whether you speak the language well or not. Your husband can and should go to see his family on his own. You could always join for a few days every year but make sue you have your return flight booked and you leave on that day. No one has any right to tell you how often you can see your own family.
Tbh your biggest problem is your husband who sounds entirely selfish and unsupportive. Fine if he misses his family, but it doesn't sound like he is supporting you in seeing your own family. He also sounds like he completely lacks empathy with regards to your MC.
I used to live in Italy and I am totally generalizing, but this kind of family dynamic is really common. My relationship with an Italian didn't work out for various other reasons but I am very relieved in hindsight. I think you need to do some soul-searching to try to work out whether this marriage is right for you. Sorry

@Goodnightto2023 I think I make my husband sound worse than he is. In reality, it is me that needs to change to make the relationship more equal.

In regards to seeing my family - my Mum basically cut me out of her life and doesn't like to see me unless it is for appearances. My Dad and step Dad are dead. My mother in law's views shouldn't stop me travelling to see other relatives, it is I who let her views affect me.

Sadly, I can pinpoint the exact moment it all went wrong -

On my wedding day, my Mum told me I was too annoying, and that I was lucky for anyone to marry me and that I would need to change so that he would stay with me. She said this very calmly - just another life lesson that I needed to take seriously if my life was to be successful.

Even though, at the time all I could think was thank goodness my Mum was saying this to me and not my sister, who normally gets the brunt of her comments. Even though I know logically not to listen to her, I can track my anxiety with my in-laws, down to the day my mum told me this and then 1 year later cut me out of her life due to an argument we had. Ever since this day I have had a terrible fear of displeasing my in-laws. The only lesson I learnt from my own parents was that if you stand up for yourself you will loose them and be left very much alone. Sadly, for me, however logical I am, this is a lesson I can't seem to unlearn. And now I am in a circle of paralysing fear not to displease them - of which I do all the time, because I will never be an italian wife.

For everyone wondering if the marriage is right. I have thought on this. But no marriage will be right if I am not right in myself. I have already run away from adult relationships because I gave too much of myself away. I can't do that again and not learn the real lesson - that a marriage means I don't have to be a perfect wife, and my husband will still be there.