Is this normal for a 3yo!?

[Glassesfrompubs]

My DC1 was (in my opinion) a fairly normal 3 year old. A bit of a PITA at times but largely manageable. DS2 is off the scale. Are my expectations of a 3 year old unreasonable or is he really "challenging"?!

Everything, and I mean everything, is a battle. He is defiant to the point of impossible. From getting dressed in the morning to going to bed a night. But it's not just "boring" stuff, it's lovely stuff too. If I suggest the park, he screams and kicks that he wants to stay at home and play. If we stay at home, he wants to go to his grandparents. If we take the kids to an outing, he screams that he doesn't want to go and when we're there, he screams that wants to go home. I could offer him a chocolate covered unicorn and he'd say no. He bullies his older sibling, who for a Christmas present actually asked for a day with mum & dad without DS2.

Discipline doesn't seem to have the slightest impact. Time outs just bounce right off him (he takes himself cheerfully to the space, says "sorry" then proceeds to carry on with being naughty afterwards). He's lost toys (e.g. his blocks will go into the garage for 1 day), he's lost TV time (we limit screen time strictly to 15 minutes per day anyway so it's not something he does a lot of), he's lost pudding, he's been stopped from going to parties... and he does not give a single shit.

We've also tried rewarding him - he had a sticker chart which he liked, but it took about 6 weeks to reach the end, because he just wasn't motivated enough by it to behave nicely. We really make the effort to praise his good behaviour whenever we see it. I'm out of ideas. Nursery have been struggling too - I am getting fed up with having to have "little chats" with the keyworker! They don't think he's ND, they think he's just at the difficult-end of "typical" three year old.

He can be the most loving, sweet little boy but this behaviour is exhausting. Yesterday we went to a Christmas event and it was something marketed for his age group, but he absolutely ruined it. We all left crying, including him because it really was amazing and I could tell he really did want to be there, but for some reason he just couldn't let himself enjoy it, if that makes sense. He seems to need to win at all costs.

AIBU or is this really just normal three year old?! Also, please help me with your suggestions!

TIA

Ds2 is like this, sorry to say its not much better aged 6. I really struggle with it, and my relationship with him is in a bad place. I can try all the reasoning, staying calm, explaining , clear very simple instruction, letting him know in advance. Nothing much helps. He is often rude and unpleasant in the way he speaks to people which is awful.

I have a child who has been hard work and when things are tough I try to focus on connection not correction. Obviously don’t let them continue dangerous behaviour but the punishments clearly don’t work so you need a different way of doing things. Focus on your relationship with them.

I know they’ve said he’s not ND, but honestly nursery workers aren’t qualified to make that call. Have you read anything about oppositional defiance disorder or pathological demand avoidance? Even if he doesn’t meet the threshold for diagnosis, he could be showing some of those traits so parenting strategies aimed at those kind of kids might help.

Can he understand and make a choice between two things? Eg biscuit or banana, trousers or shirts, park or swimming? By understand I mean then be happy with and able to stick to the choice he’s made?

The things you’re trying are very outdated and not in keeping with healthy emotional development. That’s also a large part of why they don’t work.

Time outs don’t allow the child to work through their own emotions, simply because they aren’t capable. They’re also not a natural consequence, so they don’t mean anything to the child.

Similarly, removal of toys doesn’t work either, because again, they’re not a natural consequence.

Sticker charts reinforce external motivation; you need to teach intrinsic motivation.

Also you should never use food as punishment (or a treat, either). That fosters a very unhealthy relationship with food and is an absolute no no.

Check out “how to talk do kids will listen”. Also Nanny Amies and Sarah Ockwell Smith will help you too.

Sounds very similar to my son. He really struggles in social settings and is seemingly unkind for no reason. Nursery also said not ND at 3. By 4 behaviour has escalated and we now have SEN services involved and awaiting assessment by child development team.

I will say though that the behaviour usually had a function but it was sometimes hard to identify. Eg. Misbehaved in public settings as overwhelmed by noise or amount of people. Had meltdowns at home as he was given too many choices. He also doesn't care about consequences although is bothered about losing puddings as he is quite food motivated.

How is he one on one with just you or your partner?

Hi OP, my DS was exactly the same as this. It's truly awful isn't it because they're your child and you love them and you so desperately want to have a great relationship, but everything is a battle and it wears you down to the point of tears sometimes.
This time last year by DS turned 3 just before Xmas and I quite honestly didn't even like him. I regularly googled things to try and cheer myself up/work out if he was ND, I've worked out that it's just a personality thing, and I would've thought your DS is very bright like my DS and just knows his opinion and mind. He's pushing the boundaries as a learning curve, working out his place. I think he probably knows and feels like the youngest and he doesn't like it, he wants to be bigger etc etc.
Anyway im pleased to tell you my DS (now just turned 4) is A LOT easier this year, yes he still has his moments and tbh it's only got easier in the last couple of months but he is definitely easier and he understands the world a lot better. For example this year he wants to be on 'the nice list' for Father Christmas.

My advice is to just try and be consistent (I know it's soo hard when you're in a bad mood too), but make staying calm your priority (I still have to try and do this now) and just tell yourself your DS is learning his place and he will get better! For now, drink some wine :-)

Also I don't know why people always jump to say ND... surely everyone knows 3 year olds are absolute bell ends? 🤣

Needed to read this comment today. Merry Christmas!

Mine were like this.

I had twins.

We didn't go out much between when they were about 2 and about 4 because they just couldn't behave in public.

We stopped spending money on going to places, got supermarket deliveries instead of going out to the shops etc.

We just went to places like the park where it didn't matter if they lost it.

They did get better.
One is now diagnosed with adhd. The other is nt.

Yeah it’s normal for 3 year olds to be…..difficult. But there’s a range of difficulty and it sounds like OP’s son is very very difficult right now! It may not be neurodivergence but some of the strategies SEN parents use could be helpful if he’s showing some of the same behaviours.

I have one autistic child and one child waiting assessment for ADHD and dyspraxia, so my parenting is very different now to how I started out! You have to work out what works for your family whether there’s a handy diagnosis or not.

You’ve just described my DS2! DS1 was a dream then along came the whirlwind. He was subsequently diagnosed with ADHD at 7. We employed the ignore the bad behaviour (unless he’s hurting someone) and I mean no attention whatsoever. It was unnatural at first and hard to stick to. Give lots of attention to the child behaving well BUT go OTT if he does something good.
I’m not saying for a minute your child has ADHD (but sooo similar to my son)but with the sticker chart DS lost interest as initially it took to long to fill. ADHDers (our son) needed immediate rewards. It’s a dopamine thing. I’ll try add a link. (Again your son may not have ADHD but worth a read and a try)To get the sticker chart filled up quickly praise every good thing he does no matter how small. Let him help make the sticker chart, include him in deciding what the reward should be. Ooh also (just remembering what we tried) never say you’re very naughty (or anything like that) say that was naught behaviour. It didn’t work overnight and he did still have meltdowns but not as often. DS is 16 now and is mostly learning to control himself. He is still triggered by things and went on a rant last night. I just said to him bring it down. He did and apologised. Additude

You do have some good advice here. I will add that for some children, a choice doesn’t work. Maybe your little one would respond better to now/next, eg now it’s your screen time and then we are going to the park. Calm, firm, not too many words/discussion.

I also agree that he could be nd. At this age, behaviours can be misconstrued as just “normal” irrational three-year-old behaviours (ie by your nursery). I think him sabotaging his own fun at your Christmas Day out does sound like some kind of PDA.

as said above, though, every child is different and the exhausting part of parenting is finding what works for each of them. 💐

Put so much better than my early morning ramblings 😂. He may be NT but some ND strategies may work.

Is he worse for big events that you'd expect him to look forward to? My eldest struggles with too much build up and retreats when he feels as though he is supposed to be 'performing enjoyment' as the pressure is too much. We try and keep things low key now, don't mention events a lot in the run up and approach everything like a trip to the shops so the stakes feel low and the external pressure is minimised.

Mine was also unmotivated by any external rewards etc (frustrating when you want to bribe them, but a relief when they're older and aren't easily swayed by peer pressure etc!). Try and find what does motivate him and use it in a positive way E.g. 'Let's whizz round the shop quickly so we have time for lego when we get home' rather than 'if you don't behave in the shop, we won't be able to play lego later' etc.

It really helped me to reframe the behaviour in my mind as well :

He knows his own mind vs he's stubborn
He values fairness vs he never lets anything go
He's detail oriented vs he complains about the tiniest spot on his apple

A lot is about changing your mind set and adapting your parenting to meet his needs. In some ways, I was lucky that my first child was my most tricky so I didn't have any 'techniques' for him to undermine but I do use an array of SEN tactics on him, despite lack of diagnosis, because they work for us.

Good luck - I know it's hard but if you can focus on building a loving relationship then you can work together to make things a bit more harmonious.

@DysmalRadius
He knows his own mind vs he's stubborn
He values fairness vs he never lets anything go
He's detail oriented vs he complains about the tiniest spot on his apple

A lot is about changing your mind set and adapting your parenting to meet his needs. In some ways, I was lucky that my first child was my most tricky so I didn't have any 'techniques' for him to undermine but I do use an array of SEN tactics on him, despite lack of diagnosis, because they work for us.

Perfectly put!

Does anyone have a daughter like this? It always seems to be boys.

I have 3 daughters. Good as gold when they were little - wouldn't have behaved like this.
But fuck me, I'm going through the teenage years and it's pure hell

Mine can often be like this. Maybe not quite so continuously, but the days of complete defiance and refusal outweigh the good days. It’s been particularly bad in the run up to Xmas. Exhaustion mixed with overexcitement has seen behaviour nose dive even more.

Currently, we have no reason to suspect he’s ND. He may well be, but equally I’m sure lots of easier 3 year olds receive a diagnosis later in life. It’s very hard to pick apart from a fiercely independent, high energy personality at this age.

Something notable from your post is you seem hellbent on changing his behaviour. Sometimes, this isn’t possible and it’s better to just survive the phase for what it is.

Personally, I don’t think ‘Discipline’ in the classic sense works. It often just causes a spiral of more and more telling off/punishment when the initial punishment doesn’t work. It’s miserable for everyone and makes the behaviour worse. I also think a lot of your punishments are too sophisticated for a 3 year old to understand, such as missing parties due to bad behaviour. Genuinely, what do you think that’s actually going to achieve in future?

A few absolutely solid boundaries (and riding out tantrums in the name of them), saying yes wherever possible and complete low demand parenting has been our best bet. Nothing booked in advance where can be helped. Save demands for when absolutely unavoidable. Don’t assume they’ll find something theoretically ‘lovely’ to be lovely, Play each day depending on what he’s like. We’ve spent all morning running around the garden this morning because that’s what he’s wanted and needed and it keeps his behaviour in check.

Hope things get easier for you soon.

My youngest was (is still) like this although they’ve got better but age of 8 can still be hard work. They were hard as a baby and difficult from 1 onwards!

things that helped at 3

listened to them, sometimes I jumped in too quickly so acknowledging their feelings helped ‘yes I can see why you’re so sad when the party ended but now we have to go because it’s finished’

got them out no matter the weather

gave them a job to do as they like helping

very firm if anything to do with hurting anyone, especially sibling

lots of praise for smallest of positives

This is my daughter (middle child). My oldest is a dream.

She is the only cause of disruption in the house, and it really gets to me at times.

From the age of 2.5 I knew she was "fiery"! I tried using the naughty chair and as god is my judge, she used to SPIT on it. And sometimes she'd throw it.

She is still the exact same. I don't know how to parent her. Anything that I used or that eg Jo Frost recommends doesn't work - she literally doesn't give a shit. She has no fear. EXCEPT for school. She is 100% house devil, street angel.

God do I adore her. She is 6 and hilarious, fun and appears to be incredibly intelligent. But oh my god. She upsets the house so so much. Nothing can happen without a fight.

I spoke to a psychologist (she didn't meet her, this was over zoom). She brought up ADD twice, which I was surprised by. She also reminded me that while her intelligence is advanced, her emotional intelligence is not.

I have been strongly advised to ensure I spend one on one time with her, and to praise any positive behaviour, and to ignore bad behaviour ... because ANY attention is worthwhile for her.

Thanks for your ideas and words of advice/comfort! I'm very worried he's going to turn into an asshole adult... but hopefully this is just a challenging phase

A few replied have mentioned natural consequences which I can see is logical in e.g. don't wear a coat - get cold. But... say he's drawing on the walls - what's the natural consequence for that, for him? I end up having to repaint them, which obviously he can't do (and tbh if he did he'd love it). We talk about emotions and how he's feeling a lot, and we do offer choices e.g. "would you like to wear these pants or these ones" but surely there has to be a consequence if he - for example - refuses to wear any pants and then deliberately shits on the floor?!

Ha, couldn't of said it better myself

I would guess a natural consequence of drawing on walls is no access to pencils etc but it sounds like your consequences need an overhaul if they just aren't working. Perhaps have a think about why they aren't working. The naughty step isn't just until he says sorry, it's for a set time limit for example.

But... say he's drawing on the walls - what's the natural consequence for that, for him?

The natural consequence for this is removal of drawing items. If you can’t be trusted not to draw on the wall then you don’t get free access to them.

but surely there has to be a consequence if he - for example - refuses to wear any pants and then deliberately shits on the floor?!

He doesn’t get to refuse. You say “would you like the blue pants or the red pants?” And if doesn’t choose you say “I can see you’re having a hard time choosing right now, so I’ll pick for you.” Then put pants on him.

Never punish for a toileting incidents. Ever. That’s when you end up with toileting problems. A simple “wee/poo goes on the potty” is enough and getting him to help clean up.