Breastfeeding - do the ‘experts’ really know?

[BreastIsBestBut]

Posting in AIBU for traffic and title might be a bit misleading.

There is a strong push for exclusive breastfeeding, or so I found during my two pregnancies. I did actually want to exclusively breastfeed anyway.

All the advice says avoid bottle / formula as it affects milk supply and once you start especially in the early days it’s much harder to go exclusive (to get the milk supply). It feels to me like the thinking is pretty much everyone can produce enough milk for their baby and it is normal for the baby to have lost some weight in the first week.

However, then we also hear that not everyone can breastfeed. But it never seems to be acknowledged by the people you speak to immediately post birth (the breastfeeding support etc).

What are people’s experiences and is there anyone who was actually told they have milk supply issue and therefore will need supplementation (whether in form of formula or donor milk)?

I ended up mix feeding both of mine and am now convinced I’m not able to produce enough milk. With first it was bad start but with the second I did everything ‘right’ and he lost in the first 36 hours app. 8% of his weight, had crystals in his urine which is supposed to be sign of possible dehydration but all that seemed to have been brushed to the side. I ended up giving some formula against the advice and had immediately much happier baby. Still kept and keep going with the breastfeeding but ending up having to do formula (after baby spends so much time on the breast and still crying).

Are there many people who were actually advised by the ‘experts’ they need to supplement. Or do people largely end up doing it themselves against advice?

Kind of makes me feel if you follow what they tell you and trust what you are told you could do more harm to the baby than good…?

I think we have to acknowledge that BF is what most of us would have done/have to do, in prehistoric times (wet nursing aside), and that our bodies are pretty brilliant and nature will work it out. Breast milk is far superior to formula, that’s just a fact. (Even if advertising claims it’s not.)

But what about for us women, doing the BFg?

For me, I didn’t find it easy. At times it was bloody hard.

Anyone who BFs, for any length, deserves a medal. Many medals if you push through (actually, like I did, not that I ever discussed it in real life, or got any medals!)

I mentioned to my good friend, how hard it was, and she said this encouraged her to carry on, past the six week mark. Sometimes women need to be told it’s hard. yes, it would be way easier to buy a carton of formula.

I also worried a lot about baby not getting any milk, or losing weight. But I kept thinking, “trust nature”. I’m so glad i did. I know I gave my child the best start, with my milk.

Women with tongue tied babies etc, who can’t BF, this is very very different, and obvs those infants could well have died in my aforementioned prehistoric times! Where formula is better, then do this.

CSection here, no milk , day 5 back to hospital with starved baby, 100% formula given, milk eventually came in and over a week I managed to reduce formula and EBF

@Changedmymind99 “Fed is best”
I love that! 🤣 Absolutely true

Totally agree - i actually found it baffling at the time - my antenatal care was excellent, all midwives and doctors compassionate and respectful, labour and delivery amazing, and then all of a sudden I was a piece of shit being bossed around by matronly control freaks who kept talking to me like I was stupid and contradicting each other. I had trouble getting baby to latch so stayed an extra night and I’ll never forget the Hca who told me “they won’t let you leave you know if you can’t feed him”. Wtf?? Is this a hospital or a prison??

honestly I felt when pregnant I could do nothing wrong and then once I had the baby I was worthless.

The UK charts are different to ones from other countries. I think for this reason.

DS struggled with breast feeding but expressed and bottle fed him with breast milk and got shit because he apparently wasn't gaining enough weight. He wouldnt feed anymore and I was over producing milk. He just wouldn't have more! They couldn't tell me how much breast milk he should be having though. Only how much formula milk. It was stupid.

In the end I got fed up. DS was happy and wouldn't eat more. He was healthy. So I stopped bothering with the weigh ins. It was really upsetting and I was at a point where I didn't know what else to do. I didn't see the point in going to formula if I had an over supply of breast milk and he still wasn't drinking it. He clearly wasn't ill. It was unbelievably stressful though.

Then I found the Norwegian growth charts - where breastfeeding is much more common than the UK. We plotted DSs details on them. Instead of his curve dropping centiles like on the British charts, he was matching the curve for his centile almost perfectly.

It really pissed me off, as clearly the UK charts are missing something. I'd been through all the shit of feeling stressed and guilty and here's another chart for a country with a high breastfeeding rate where he's spot on where he should be.

I came to the conclusion that we know fuck all about breastfeeding in this country and low rates are making the problem worse.

@RedToothBrush Do you have a link to their chart please?

Just Google it! That's how we found it. I've no idea where it is now, so only would have to Google it myself.

Should come up as a fairly easy result.

Thanks all. I only skimmed through some of the replies posted so far. I will get back to it.

Few things I wanted to add in the meantime. My first was born in the morning (I really didn’t know what I was doing then), nipples completely destroyed by lunchtime, by late evening wouldn’t latch and kept crying. I asked what to do but decided there and then I’m going to give her formula, second best food better than not sufficient food is what I thought. Never managed to get the supply to exclusively breastfeed after but medication for 7 days a few days after birth where I couldn’t breastfeed played part. Ended up breastfeeding for 13 months but with lot of formula as well.

I was prepared for second, nipple cream, nipple shields in the bag, told the staff I had issues with breastfeeding and asked for help straight after birth. All seemed to be going well. Baby latching, no cracked nipples, although baby doing some 3 hour marathon feed, then not feeding for some 7 hours (couldn’t wake him up to get a feed in) then another 3 hour marathon and then again couldn’t wake him up. On the maternity ward I kept asking if he is ok as he seemed too quiet - they said he is fine. Second day going to A&E after a video call with doctor because of a rush that turned out to be harmless but there the doctor wanted us admitted on maternity ward as thought baby might not be getting enough milk, whilst waiting baby had elevated temperature and they decided he needs antibiotics and we got admitted to a different ward for 3 days. I asked what about the feeding but that became secondary. Next day a consultant made rounds and discharged us saying the antibiotics were overreaction, I asked what about the feeding, they said just keep going with the breast, mother nature and all that.

Then spoke to local community support and again the advice pretty much keep going with breast…

Latch and all that was fine, started getting sore given he was feeding so much but no actual cracked nipples…

So I kept going with breast but giving formula as well as clearly baby not happy on breast only.

I read one article where a baby died of dehydration, baby was quiet when feeding, had a good latch, but cried when not feeding. By the time they got admitted in the hospital it was too late…

I put experts in quotation marks as there is a range of people I got advice from and they had different levels of qualifications, midwifes, support in community, doctors - different levels of expertise.

Both of my deliveries were unassisted with gas as pain relief (but had the medication a bit later on with first - but that was after I already started giving formula)

I think people have hit the nail on the head when saying that we aren’t prepared/told how much hard work breastfeeding is, so give up and think we have failed or haven’t got enough supply if baby doesn’t take to it straight away.

Cluster feeding, for example, isn’t a sign that your baby isn’t getting enough milk- it’s actually how they increase your supply. I remember days where I would be breastfeeding every hour or even half an hour until the milk supply had established.
I was panicking that baby was so unsettled and mustn’t be getting enough food, until a hv explained it to me.

Also people being told by midwives that they haven’t got enough milk after a few days, when in fact your ‘proper’ milk doesn’t come in until day 5 anyway, before that it’s mainly colostrum.

When my baby’s latch became so bad that they were throwing up large quantities of ingested blood from my nipples, I was just told that I was feeding baby too much (not true- you can’t overfeed a breastfed baby) and to swap to formula. No attempt whatsoever to try and get to the root of the issue, help with the latch or help me to continue breastfeeding. Support was non-existent until I paid for a private lactation consultant.

I would say lack of support, rather than actual lack of milk supply is the main reason people stop breastfeeding in this country.

There are certain fairly common medical conditions that can hugely affect supply.

I think it's shocking that thyroid levels aren't checked in pregnancy for example as not only can they affect supply but they can cause miscarriage and learning difficulties.

Milk supply issue is rare but we are told otherwise (by msm and formula companies. I failed breastfeeding my first because of misinformation and lack of support. I'm still breastfeeding my second at 2 altho we did need to supplement at the beginning due to low weight and poor milk transfer. It's v hard to get a blood test to diagnose low supply but there's hardly any info/supporr to help women who are struggling for ither reasons and it's such a number game if your baby isn't thriving immediately

At 5 weeks my supply seemed to drop off a cliff but I was told by multiple people to keep going, DD was starving. My milk then entirely dried up. It came back for one feed 3 days later and that was it.
I think giving formula when I started having issues might have helped. The advice from everyone was to power through, but I was delirious with tiredness as DD wasn’t fed and wouldn’t sleep. I think a bottle or 2 might have helped get us back on track.

I lost quite a lot of blood during the birth of dc1 and had very low iron levels (should have had a transfusion) and I just didn’t make any milk. I really tried, followed advice, but had absolutely none. The midwife said to bottle feed because my body was too busy trying to make blood so wasn’t making milk. I was just too poorly. If I hadn’t dc1 would have starved to death, literally.

I think you are right that the whole period after birth is quite fraught. I think it can be correct that for women who have less supply, supplementing can really make it harder to build up. I'm less convinced about nipple confusing being inevitable, but I know some infants won't accept a bottle if they don't get one early.

I do think it's the case that the "experts" are often guessing.

I've often thought that the ideal situation might be to have another experienced nursing mother to supplement at the very beginning, which would help the baby learn how to feed well, but there are obviously a lot of reasons we don't do that.

I do think that it is true that it is totally normal for babies to lose weight the first day or two, and not in itself a problem.

It is the same here in Canada. I had a terrible time with my first around the time she turned six months, and they sent me to a pediatrician, she was having me slather all of the baby's food in butter. I could not get her to eat anything else. Finally I said, she is healthy and she is just like I was as a baby, and my dad, and I'm really not worried. The idiot doctor said low weight babies had deficits.

I never went back and while my other kids all had the same curve I didn't bother about it and didn't let the doctors fuss about it either.

I know what you mean. I'm five months into EBF and have been in a WhatsApp support group since the early days. Now seen enough rounds of messages to notice that the BF counsellors' default response seems to be to gloss over difficulties and put pretty much everything beyond the first few weeks down to "your baby is a bit bigger now so you probably just need to try changing position". I think it would be more helpful to acknowledge that it can be hard for a variety of reasons, and how to tell if/when it might be healthier for mum and/or baby to stop. It's like they're worried that admitting that will put people off but I think the opposite is true - if people feel more in control they may be more willing to keep at it.

Someone I know from the UK but living in norway whose baby was gaining slowly was told to keep breastfeeding whereas someone in the same situation in the UK was told to mixed feed. In both cases families were genetically short and slight. Made me suspicious that mixed feeding is over pushed in the uk

My youngest had feeding issues. Older sibling was exclusively breastfed so I knew it wasn't a supply issue. Didn't change the fact there were still feeding issues though! As a result he was combi fed but got 99% of his calories from formula as he wasn't able to latch on properly until he was 4 months old. He then moved on to exclusively breastfeeding after that (against my will 😅 I was quite happy with the occasional bottle but he had other ideas).

All that just to say that breastfeeding isn't always the best way of feeding your child. It wasn't for my youngest - he would've genuinely died without formula. It saved him and helped him grow big and strong enough for him to eventually be able to breastfeed. He went from born at 91st centile to dropping down to below 9th centile before formula eventually saved the day.

I doubt it's about how much milk you produc. More about how much more easily baby gets milk from a bottle.

I was advised DD needed a bottle when we were still in hospital because she was jaundice and just not feeding from me. I had milk but she refused to latch.
So I expressed and also topped up with formula.
Had I not topped up and kept expressing I am sure I would have had enough milk.
I think almost all women can produce enough for demand. But not everyone can actually breast feed due to other reasons

I was able to breastfeed but chose to combi-feed which led to exclusively bottle feeding (night feeds were split between me and DH and other people got to feed LO)

Ultimately, my kids are fine, thriving and healthy and no-one has ever asked them if they were 'breast or bottle-fed'

Do what suits you, not what suits your MIL, Midwife, Heath Visitor or Opinionated 'Friends'.

X

It is completely fine to bottle feed or mix feed of that is your choice. Every week on here there are heartbreaking threads where new , exhausted mothers are getting in a muddle and any support they are getting is contradictory..it seems that women are being let down. Antenatal care has always been bad on this topic but what I have noticed is that many families have bottles and prepared milk in their hospital bags.To me, this is setting you up to fail. It takes days for milk to come in during which stimulation of the breast needs to happen very regularly. If you want to buy milk do so any day you like from the supermarket but if you want to give breast feeding it's best shot make that your priority.
One thing that is not always mentioned is that babies vary a lot and that with some it is a much more difficult mutual experience.
My experience was having a very easy to feed DC first, born straightforwardly at term and very vigorous from the off. Fed four hourly and briefly almost from the start and with whom I had a huge supply quite quickly. DC2 was very difficult to feed , very scrawny , bobbed on and off the whole time, was 12 weeks before we got to 90 minutes and of that they were attached for at least half the time. It was a miserable experience. DC3 was born at 38/40 and was much floppier, they were also a sick child and in and out of hospital a lot. They didn't take to it instantly but within a month they were very effective although not in the same realms as DC2.It was a successful journey though. My point is that even in one woman's personal life there is a variety of experiences and that this is where support should be coming in. We tend to blame ourselves and then look for external answers when sometimes support, reassurance and time would have changed the outcome.

Antenatal care has always been bad on this topic but what I have noticed is that many families have bottles and prepared milk in their hospital bags.To me, this is setting you up to fail

I had a thread on this just before I had DD. I didn’t take any when I had DS, because I was determined to breastfeed. Unfortunately, I was terrible at it so he lost too much weight and the dreaded feeding plan ensued. I took ready made bottles for DD in anticipation of problems.

Truth is, until breastfeeding support in hospitals is more than ramming newborns heads onto breasts those bottles will remain.

Btw, I have met some very expert Lace and peer supporters.

I found it all so complicated the first time round that I'm going to formula feed this time round and im actually quite excited by the freedom (emotionally, mentally and physically) it will give me.

In the very early days you feed and feed and feed and feed, to kick-start your milk supply, if you supplement at this stage your body isn't aware that there's unmet milk needs.

It's completely nornalcfor babies to lose up to 10% body weight within thd first few days, sometimes more ifvyouve have IV fluids in labor. Or if you've lost a lot of blood, as this can slow down how fast your milk comes in.

Generally the vast majority of people would be able to breastfeed exclusively (if that's what they wanted) if they had the right support and enough of it.

Instead we give everyone the 'breast is liquid gold and amazing and you must do it or you'll have a sickly stupid child' speech, we don't explain how it may be hard, and certainly doesn't always come easy. We then provide very little practical support when things are tough, have huge waits on tongue tie snips and very few medical staff who fully understand breastfeeding.