To let dd decide?

[dddecide]

Feeling awful and just looking for outside perspective. Apologies for length. Dd is 12, her dad lives the other side of the country. We’ve had the arrangement for many years that dd spends half of all the holidays with him. She has always struggled with this, she never wants to go and doesn’t want to leave me for long periods of time. I feel her dad has never been sensitive to this, and instead has always taken it personally and been annoyed that her not wanting to go hurts his feelings so over the years she has learnt to try to hide her upset about going so as not to upset him. I’ve done my best to be positive about their visits, reminding her that she does often have nice times while visiting etc. Dd also video calls him 3x a week (also often complains about having to do this, I think it now feels like a chore to her). She’s becoming much more ‘teenagery’, stroppy, selfish, a bit uncaring, doesn’t want to do things etc so I feel a bit conflicted atm because she’s not being especially reasonable, but I also understand her feelings about the situation.

I really feel that I’ve done my best to facilitate their relationship, and I’ve always been very sensitive to, and considerate of, her dads feelings and the challenges of the situation. I often wonder if I’ve been TOO considerate, at the expense of dds feelings. And I worry that by continuing to insist she visit I’m doing damage to her, as well as my own relationship with her.

Dd has been expressing upset about visiting for Xmas and we discussed the things that were making her feel reluctant to go. They were issues that could be worked on, so I messaged her dad to discuss and his reaction was very negative. (I can totally understand the upset because it must be incredibly hurtful to feel like your child doesn’t want to see you. I did make it clear that dd had said she wanted to see him, but was just worried about these things). He was not receptive at all, and imo was only talking about how he felt about everything and didn’t really give dds feelings much consideration at all. He also insulted my parenting a bit but I’m not overly bothered about that, though it was a bit upsetting and made me question myself.

Dd had seemingly been happy to go if these issues were addressed, but following his reaction has now said she doesn’t want to go. She understands some of the potential consequences of this decision and is sticking by it (I fear this will be the end of their relationship as I think there’s a good chance he’ll say not to bother in future). Aibu to let her decide at this point not to go? I’m genuinely upset for her dad, but DDs feelings have to be my priority.

Will answer any qs people feel may be relevant, didn’t want post to be even longer so may have missed important information (or included irrelevant information!).. please try not to be too harsh on me, I’ve really tried my best and I know I’ve got it wrong at times but I’ve really tried.

You absolutely shouldn't force her and his reaction shows he cares more about his feelings than his daughter's comfort.

But I would also keep records of all the messages to show you are trying to facilitate the relationship in case he goes the legal route.

I'd definitely let her decide. What I think you need to do is reply to him and make sure you say how he has not responded to your points or even made suggestions that will take her feelings into account.

My answer to this would depend on who moved away from who.

If he moved away from you, then tough luck.

If you moved away from him, then I think you should continue to encourage your daughter a bit more.

Did you move away from him? Or him from you? If you moved away and took his child I can see why he gets upset. If he moved then he is one CF to be expecting a kid to run to him. But either way, let your DD decide. A parent that likes on the other side of the country and doesn’t regularly visit is not a proper parent anyway, forcing 3 video calls a WEEK is too much as well if she doesn’t enjoy it. A court would take her feelings into account so you should too.

What are the visitation arrangements normally (i e. outwith holidays)?

I think this is relevant because if he only really sees her for the holidays, I could understand her feeling like a bauble that's brought out and dusted off, so he can have the shiny hallmark Christmas! And who wants to spend Christmas feeling like a guest all the time?

If he does see her regularly, I'd stick to the normal arrangements. I.e. no extra days just because it's Christmas.

I also tend to think that the parent who does the lion's share of parenting gets first choice of days for the holidays tbh, but that's a whole other issue!

Ooh that's a tricky one really. I moved across the country and met him while living there. We were only together for about 18 months, relationship was pretty toxic and it ended. I moved back to live near my family and then found out I was pregnant. So we've not been together, or lived near each other, for the entirety of DDs life.

I really have made every effort. When dd was younger I used to take her to his every few months and I'd stay with friends for a week or 2 nearby while dd saw him. When dd started school we were obviously limited to holidays so came up with our current arrangement. I've continued to occasionally do the trip, but I've had uni and a job, and now have a baby and toddler so doing the long trip there and back with them is much much harder.

It's also worth noting that he's only visited our area to see dd 3 times in 12 years. And dd herself has expressed upset that she always has to leave her home and they never come here.

@dddecide I could well have ended up in your situation myself tbh. Going off what you've said, I'd let her decide. Him making the effort to visit 3 times in 12 years is just shit.

Then stop feeling sorry for this guy and just listen to your DD. He’s never been a proper dad and expects her to do the leg work, which is not something you want your daughter to grow up thinking we do for men! He can visit her if he wants, she’s here and available, but she doesn’t want to travel and that’s far enough. You aren’t blocking contact, you are allowing her not to travel away from home when she doesn’t want to.

I don’t get what difference it makes who moved away from who. What’s important here is what’s best for the child and the fact that her dad is completely disregarding her feelings. He seems hellbent on destroying what relationship they have, so it’s going to happen at some point anyway. 12 is old enough to make your own mind up about who to spend Xmas with. I wouldn’t destroy your own relationship with your daughter trying to placate her father who sounds like an insensitive shit tbh

You have been far too accommodating. You and your daughter are making more of an effort that he is.

I’d insist on her seeing him over the Christmas break but not necessarily for the full week or however long she’s supposed to go for.

What are the issues she’s raised? It makes a difference if it’s legitimate like she doesn’t want to sleep on a sofa the whole time, or not like she wanted to be able to play games all night.

Your update says it all really. So it’s his way or the highway. So making any effort for her to feel welcome in his house, or god forbid him even travelling down to spend time with her in her own surroundings is unacceptable. She needs to sacrifice her holiday, Xmas and her happiness because her dad can’t put her first in any way, and her mum doesn’t want to rock the boat. I’d move heaven and earth for my kids. I wouldn’t be forcing a distraught 12yo girl to spend Xmas with her uncaring father

I would listen to your DD. Still encourage her to maintain contact and see him, but he is going to have to accept that she has other things going on in her life too. He sounds quite inflexible.

You've done more than enough. Forcing her to go will only delay the inevitable. If she doesn't want to visit now, she won't be interested when she's an adult either.

I don't think it makes any difference how far away he is personally. Who can't make the effort to travel for their kid once a year no matter how inconvenient it is?

Just really wanted to say that whatever you decide, your daughter is really, really lucky to have you as a mother op. You sound incredibly caring, intelligent, and sensitive to her needs , and so concerned to do right by everyone, and you have have made huge efforts. This doesn’t seem to be the case for your ex.

Love is a verb so take note of his actions not his words. Is he being belligerent bc he really wants to see your dd or because his ego is hurt?

And of course the irony is that it’s only natural that your dd will be reluctant to stay with her dad being as he is, and of course he has no self awareness of the very characteristics that contributed to that reluctance!

I have no experience of these situations but as you don’t appear to have any legal agreement to fulfill, I think it’s time to let dd to decide. It’s very difficult though isn’t it as young adolescents don’t always know what is best for them. Nor do you want her to blame you when she is older for not making her go on contact visits.

Could you and your ex afford a couple of sessions of mediation to sort this out? We have used a professional mediation company to resolve a professional issue at work and it was incredibly effective.

This is one of the other issues really. He has previously said that it's not worth it when it's for less than a week. Petrol is expensive, and they do all the travelling so it basically takes them a full day. So each time (unless it's one of the odd occasions that I'm going, or my parents are visiting nearby), 2 of their days are taken up with travel. So in his mind he only gets 5/6 days and if it was less then what's the point in spending all the time and money.. Dd has previously said she'd be happier if it was less time.

The issues raised were wanting him and his mum not to argue in front of her (her dad shouts and has been known to storm off). It makes her anxious and upset and of course it bloody does. His response was he obviously doesn't want to argue but he can't control if they argue about something 🙄 this was responded to by saying no he can't necessarily control if a disagreement comes up, but he can control how he behaves if it does.

And dd wanting to get out of the house more when visiting. Man, as I write it all it sounds so terrible and I feel even more like I'm a shit mum for questioning myself over this shit. Her dad doesn't do much and dd gets bored and just wants to get out a bit. They used to get out more but that has lessened over the last few years. They mainly play video games and watch films. Visit his family on a day or 2. Very occasionally go and visit a friend of his, but he doesn't see his friend much at all so this is rare nowadays. I even offered to send dd with some money to go and do things because I know her dad is really skint and felt like maybe if he didn't need to worry about the money side of it it might make it more doable.

What are the issues? How does dd know his reaction if you were privately messaging with him?

At 12 years old.. yes let her decide. If her father took it to court it'd be a big waste of time as at 12 years old the court would listen to her. They wouldn't force a child of her age to go.

You've been exceptionally facilitating of his relationship with her, in fact you sound like the main driver of keeping the relationship.

You mustn't force her. Validate her feelings and make it clear its her decision and her feelings are respected.

Thank you, this actually made me tear up a little. I've always just wanted to do right by everyone and actually I fear by trying to do that I've made things worse.

I actually had never considered mediation, and I don't think DDs dad would be interested, but perhaps that's something to consider as last resort.

Wow... So she wants to not witness slanging matches and to go outside occasionally? She sounds infinitely reasonable and I would 100% keep her home! He can travel to her, the lazy git.

Absolutely agree with most of the PP. You sound lovely, but yes, time to let your daughter decide. She’s old enough, and he’s not making any effort. She sounds like a sensible lass, and seeing her dad isn’t making her feel excited, it’s making her upset. He clearly has no insight into his behaviour or even open to any changes to accommodate her needs. She nearly a teenager.
Totally realise this will be a tricky one for you to navigate, but you’ve got your DD’s feelings to consider first. He can work around her and you, or just not see her for a while. His loss.

Thank you everyone for responses.

I really do feel like it's just WRONG to make her go when she obviously doesn't want to (and when I feel like her reasons are completely valid!). And I've pretty much always felt like that, but when she was younger I knew she couldn't properly understand the consequences of not going and not having that relationship. And I didn't want to hold her back because all children have to learn to cope with separation anxiety etc.

And even though he sounds pretty shit from the relevant information I've shared, he's not a bad person and he does love her and he's always just wanted to have a good relationship with her. But as some have said, it's always had to be on his terms. And now she's old enough to assert her own terms and if he can't accept that she's allowed her own boundaries etc then that's his problem.

I'd be saying "DD came to yours last time, it's your turn to come here". If petrol is too expensive there's public transport and he doesn't need to stay in a five star hotel, a cheap holiday let or a hostel would do.

I'd suggest that as she's not happy going for that long, that he come and get an AirBnB or something near you - it would halve the travel for him, remove his mum from the equation, and there might be things from DD's life she'd be able to share with him - taking him to her favourite places to go, introducing him to her friends, and so on. He's obviously going to feel hurt if she doesn't go, but if he can see that you're trying to encourage at least some contact, it will be harder for him to blame you.

DH had this situation with his DD a few years ago; we live a distance away and she became unsure about visiting. We made a big effort to travel to where she lives and stay there more often even if only overnight and also took her to stay nearby. We didn’t have loads of money so did this as cheaply as possible. I don’t really agree with letting a child decide as they don’t and can’t understand the long year consequences but I also think that if her dad can’t see it from her point of view and make reasonable adjustments then you’re fighting a losing battle.
I would put it back on him though and say that your DD is saying this and it’s up to him to make her feel that she wants to come