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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Had enough with excuses for bad behaviour

64 replies

Ribenaberry12 · 12/12/2023 19:50

I work in a secondary school and have done for a long time (20 odd years). I currently work in a pastoral support role and part of my job is contacting parents to let them know when their child has been placed in detention/isolation. I reckon that, in the last term, 9/10 parents have argued with me and/or tried to excuse their child’s behaviour. Even when the situation is 100% clear cut - think caught vaping or heard swearing. I’m getting sick of it and thinking about jacking it in.

I’m a patient person, I’m good at my job and my school is really good - we have lots of support strategies that we offer but I’m just sick of the lack of accountability from parents. Honestly, some of the excuses I’ve been given are unbelievable.

I used to phone parents and they’d apologise for their kid’s behaviour and we’d work together to support them and we’d make sure it didn’t happen again. The bond you’d get with kids and their families when the kids turned it around was fantastic and it was great to see their successes. Now I cannot remember the last time a parent admitted that their kid was in the wrong and didn’t argue the toss - sometimes aggressively, sometimes pinging off countless emails at all hours of the day and night. Sometimes personally attacking staff who have pulled their kids up. It’s so time consuming and draining. I see the teachers and SLT so drained by it too. It’s never been this bad.

AIBU?
YABU - it’s your job, suck it up
YANBU - there’s a lack of accountability and it sucks

OP posts:
MPY24 · 12/12/2023 21:36

GreyhpundGirl · 12/12/2023 20:38

I have worked as a secondary school teacher for 20+ years. Covid has had an enormous impact, especially on the younger ones. Colleagues who work in different places say the same.

Edited

I thought the op was mainly talking about the parents though not the kids. Covid may or may not have affected kids behaviours. But the point here is that the parents are arguing why things aren't the kids faults etc rather than why the kids are behaving like they are.

Vuurhoutjies · 12/12/2023 21:41

I really hate these threads that are all about how awful children are today etc etc... but I have to admit, I think the issues with discipline at school are a bit odd. I have a few friends who I consider to be broadly similar in parenting style to me, but who are weirdly twitchy if their child gets a detention or similar at school.

But I agree with a PP that the kids whose parents respond this way, probably have bigger problems at home. DS got into a situation at the beginning of year 7. The teacher implied that my response - which was to accept the school's judgement etc, was unusual. I know one of the other parents and she's a woman who has behaved so crazily in the past she had a reputation at our primary school (I won't go into details as it would actually be outing her behaviour was SOOOO batshit). Her child started the issue in this case - fully confirmed by the school following its investigation, and DS' punishment was significantly less as a result - but I am 100% certain she is one of the parents OP is talking about and a friend overheard her bitching about my DS on the school run which just made me laugh.

GreyhpundGirl · 12/12/2023 21:46

MPY24 · 12/12/2023 21:36

I thought the op was mainly talking about the parents though not the kids. Covid may or may not have affected kids behaviours. But the point here is that the parents are arguing why things aren't the kids faults etc rather than why the kids are behaving like they are.

I think there's been a disaffection with schools/ education as a result of covid— you only had to look at social media to see what people thought of us, lazy teachers and the useless education system.

IHS · 12/12/2023 21:52

I think people lack any humility now and simply can't admit when they or their children are in the wrong. They can't admit it and just apologise. Is this because society is more unforgiving now? The people that I know that can't admit they're in the wrong have a tendancy towards being very self absorbed and thinking too highly of themselves.

A lot of parents believe that their children won't love them anymore if they discipline them. They prefer to be their friends rather than their parents.

Bluevelvetsofa · 12/12/2023 21:54

I retired some years ago, but it was certainly going that way then.

Parents who would defend their child, despite not knowing the circumstances and being unaware 99% of the time, what their child was doing.

Being sworn at, kicked, wrestled to the crowd, ignored, shouted and screamed at, are all par for the course and it’s exhausting as well as unfair. I really think it will get to the point of collapse.

MumofSpud · 12/12/2023 22:02

I got told today by a Year 9 that it was MY fault he was in detention
Ummm no !
No personal responsibility anymore.

Cicciabella · 12/12/2023 22:03

Yesi agree, I work in a secondary its horrendous, a day doesn't pass without assaults or verbal abuse. The parents are just as bad, we've banned several as they verbally abuse staff.

Coyoacan · 12/12/2023 22:04

Fionaville · 12/12/2023 21:16

I think some high schools have taken it too far with the uniform policy, putting kids into isolation for minor infringements and not letting them go to the toilet etc. Some of the reasons for being put into isolation are ridiculous and I just dont agree with it as a punishment for anything but the worst behaviours. So I think from that point of view, relations between parents and staff are at an all time low.
I know my school never had to contact my parents over anything, because these harsh rules weren't in place when I was at school. So if they had received a call about me, it would have been taken seriously.

I think I am older than you but I was always in trouble at school but it was not the culture in those days to call parents about punishments. I think my mother was only called in when they were thinking of expelling me

Nanny0gg · 12/12/2023 22:13

Cicciabella · 12/12/2023 22:03

Yesi agree, I work in a secondary its horrendous, a day doesn't pass without assaults or verbal abuse. The parents are just as bad, we've banned several as they verbally abuse staff.

How about when other children are victims of the above and the school don't protect them and the other kid has no consequences at all?

TrixieFatell · 12/12/2023 22:17

Overall I don't think yabu, I know plenty of parents who don't understand why their little darlings are always in trouble and think it's because the teachers are picking on them (and then I hear from my child the real story).

However the school has gone ridiculously draconian this year with isolations being handed out for asking a question too many about the work, putting head on arms etc. if they get punished for such trivial things I can see why parents get annoyed.

I also had to argue one because my daughter was given a detention for not doing homework that was due in a week later. She was devastated as she's never been in trouble before but her homework log clearly stated a different date from the one the teacher was saying. She didn't do the detention but it took ages to get it off her record.

I have also argued about primary school child missing break because other people in their class wouldn't stop talking. I hate collective punishment, it's lazy.

I am that parent 🤣🤣

TheWalkingDeadly · 12/12/2023 22:20

Lol Titus! All i wrote and you take it im the problem, despite it being school making the errors?

Overall i think the better behaved kids are paying the price for larger schools and classes, more sen students etc. But it impacts the sen kids even more.

There is also a lot more control of what subjects kids have to take at gcse.

NightmareGirl · 12/12/2023 22:20

Swearing isn’t a good way for someone to talk but detention is harsh. They just need to be told not to talk like that. It’s not deliberate misbehaviour. It’s someone’s speech being shaped by their peers.

Ronaldoronalda · 12/12/2023 22:37

I have been shocked by some of the behaviour my daughter reports and I think it must be very hard to navigate as staff.

However schools are not always right. My daughter has never so much as had a negative point on her app in all her years at high school but a couple of years ago, out of the blue, I was phoned by her head of year to say that she had assaulted another child. I was surprised but supportive of the school taking action.

When I went to pick her up I was cross with her. Then I saw she was sobbing and had several obvious marks on her skin.

The year head had reported the incident the wrong way around to the parents. I still feel awful for how I simply accepted what the school had said without challenge and that when my daughter needed my love and support the most, I was cross with her.

We never heard from the school again other than in the form of a somewhat surly email to say that after investigation they had decided not to take any action as regarded her on the matter. I can only hope what they meant was ‘sorry‘.

Violinist64 · 12/12/2023 22:46

NightmareGirl · 12/12/2023 22:20

Swearing isn’t a good way for someone to talk but detention is harsh. They just need to be told not to talk like that. It’s not deliberate misbehaviour. It’s someone’s speech being shaped by their peers.

Edited

For goodness’ sake. Of course they know better. “Someone’s speech being shaped by their peers” indeed. It is usually deliberate - they know exactly what they are saying and doing. If a four or five year old comes out with an unfortunate word that they have overheard or come from a background where swearing is a normal form of communication, you might then say “that’s not a nice word and I don’t want to hear it again.” By the time they reach secondary school, they know exactly what they are saying and l suspect that many children that age know more swear words than l do (l never swear). When children of this age use bad language, they are deliberately misbehaving and a detention is an appropriate punishment. When l was at school, a boy used the word b…dy at a teacher, so not one of the worst words but still unacceptable. The punishment he received was the cane. We do not cane children these days and I am not going to argue for or against it but he certainly never did it again and it acted as a deterrent to others. Swearing is horrible and should be punished. A detention can make the pupil reflect on why they are there and what they have done.

Passingthethyme · 12/12/2023 22:49

ghostyslovesheets · 12/12/2023 19:59

I hear you - but maybe those kids behave that way because they go home to parents who don't give a shit, don't set boundaries, don't care - often kids act up with people and in places they feel safe

You're doing the exact same thing, most likely the kids are spoilt brats unless coming from poverty stricken families. YANBU, but do know there are many of us out here who appreciate everything you do

TomatoSandwiches · 12/12/2023 22:50

NightmareGirl · 12/12/2023 22:20

Swearing isn’t a good way for someone to talk but detention is harsh. They just need to be told not to talk like that. It’s not deliberate misbehaviour. It’s someone’s speech being shaped by their peers.

Edited

Utter nonsense, a secondary school aged child knows swearing is not acceptable and detention is a perfectly appropriate consequence.

Passingthethyme · 12/12/2023 22:51

Gawd, reading some of the comments on here, so many excuses. How depressing. I take it back OP, you should quit and get another job.

Flatandhappy · 12/12/2023 22:55

I gave up working as a mediator for the same kind of reasons, nobody would take responsibility for their actions, it was always someone else’s fault, all willingness to negotiate or try and reach a compromise was gone. It got soul destroying and it wasn’t always that way. I think COVID has made people even more selfish and insular than before so what you describe doesn’t surprise me.

noooooooo · 12/12/2023 23:00

OP, I have a thought. Could any of this be down to the fact that schools lack the will and resources to deal with the worst behaviour?

Very clearly, at one time (I’m 45) teachers laid down the law and parents, for the most part, supported their decisions. If I got into the most trivial bit of bother at school I made damn sure my parents didn’t find out because I’d have been in double trouble. Most teens were wary of teachers (apart from the seriously anti-social children) and for the most part ill behaviour wasn’t tolerated. I remember kids being hauled out of class for verbal rudeness, for example. I went to a very rough school. There were SMT with absolute authority and kids ran when they saw them coming because they knew they wouldn’t like the consequences. No corporal punishment in the nineties but the next step was a behaviour card, whereafter persistent offenders were removed to a separate location and taught by specialists. Thereafter, permanent exclusion. It wasn’t that uncommon for people just to be removed and not return.

However, discipline has become increasingly lax and it’s hard to believe the disintegration of behaviour within state schools has been entirely parent-led. I was recently told by a HT that there was very little she could actually do about pupil
behaviour; bullying, for example, was basically survival of the fittest. Yes, some entitled parents backed their kids, but even where they didn’t, if kids didn’t straighten up and fly right after multiple warnings, exclusion was not only a last resort, but a toothless tiger. ‘These kids want to be excluded. It’s a result’ was what we were told. ‘There’s not much we can do.’ She seemed to expect sympathy.

Our LA doesn’t want to assume responsibility for finding places for kids who are permanently excluded. It would mean taxis and inconvenience and extra expense. The consequences rest with them, and not the parents. The responsibility to educate the worst offenders elsewhere ultimately lies with the state and they don’t want to do that, there doesn’t seem to be an answer anymore.

So I think the system is broken. Lack of discipline may be partially down to lack of parental support, no doubt, but increasingly the horse is following the cart. The inevitable result is a rapidly increasing lack of respect for staff. In my son’s school, for example, there are kids who gleefully tell teachers to get fucked - literally nothing happens. Quite often it’s let go. Yet guidance will argue the toss til they’re blue in the face about what sort of jumper a child should wear. It feels a lot like they’re taking the path of least resistance, and it’s setting a very poor example. My analogy would be letting the worst criminals off Scot-free, because keeping people in prison for a lifetime costs a lot of money. ‘It’s just too complex and pricey to prosecute and incarcerate the murderers, so let’s clamp down doubly on the petty thieves and vandals.’ Where does that lead?

Which is not to say I don’t have sympathy with you as a teacher. It must be very hard to receive so little support from the people who could help you do your job well. However, I think perhaps those in charge need to work a little harder to get their own house in order.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 12/12/2023 23:03

I am not saying they are always reasonable, but often the overly Draconian rules are a response to extreme behaviour. It's often touted to schools that if you sweat the small stuff eg uniform, then you get less big behaviour issues. I think this might have been true 10 or so years ago but I'm not so convinced now.

Rules around going to the toilet etc are very often because of issues around vaping, or vandalism in the toilets (as well as mental health concerns etc). I do get that most kids don't get involved in this sort of thing, but you'd be surprised how many will follow the crowd when it's going on. So students are banned from using toilets that can't be easily supervised - and I can see why it creates flashpoints and conflict with parents thinking it's unreasonable, but it's often the only way to keep the school site safe.

I think parents need to remember at secondary school their child is one of hundreds, and if 500 other children were behaving that way, would it be a problem? If so, it's not a minor issue and the parents should back the school.

Fwiw, I do think a lot of school behaviour policies emphasise phoning home as well, whereas even when I was at school 15-20 years ago it was a rare occurrence. Phoning home for every little thing reduces the impact and creates lots of extra work for teachers.

NightmareGirl · 12/12/2023 23:05

TomatoSandwiches · 12/12/2023 22:50

Utter nonsense, a secondary school aged child knows swearing is not acceptable and detention is a perfectly appropriate consequence.

I think it can be that they know not to swear around adults and they slip up. (In some cases). I keep hearing my son swearing at his friends on his computer. I tell him to stop it and he apologises. But I think he’s doing it quietly and then not realising how loud he’s talking. He comes in like, “did you hear that ?”

JustFrustrated · 12/12/2023 23:13

grafittiartist · 12/12/2023 20:03

Yep- there's been a big shift recently.
Kids just assume their parents will back them up, and they're usually right. Regardless of what has happened.
Happens on here all the time- teachers judgements being questioned.

Are we not allowed to question teachers now?

A pp up thread clearly detailed how the school, via their own system which they set up and use, was wrong. Not her child. Is she supposed to just ....say nothing?

Because as an adult in the work place, I wouldn't say nothing if my boss was telling me I was wrong about something they'd told me, and added to the system.

Or was the parent of the boy in my DDs class wrong for questioning the teacher as to why she wouldn't allow him to attend either the bathroom/nurse/SIT desk for help when he was bleeding? As an adult I wouldn't sit in a meeting bleeding, I'd go sort it out.

I'm not "one of those" parents. I back the school in 99% of cases, but there are most definitely times you need to question their judgement. Respectfully, always, but question none the less.

AuntPru · 12/12/2023 23:18

NightmareGirl · 12/12/2023 22:20

Swearing isn’t a good way for someone to talk but detention is harsh. They just need to be told not to talk like that. It’s not deliberate misbehaviour. It’s someone’s speech being shaped by their peers.

Edited

Say what now??? Swearing at school is completely unacceptable! At my work I think it would be a two hour head's detention, but "detention" can be anything from being kept behind five minutes at break, and you think that's too harsh? How about all their behaviour being shaped by their peers??? And also, if I have a sweaty colleague, does that mean that I can swear in front of a class? After all I am also influenced by my peers.

Fionaville · 12/12/2023 23:19

Coyoacan · 12/12/2023 22:04

I think I am older than you but I was always in trouble at school but it was not the culture in those days to call parents about punishments. I think my mother was only called in when they were thinking of expelling me

Same. I left school in the 90s. I got a few detentions in school and my parents were never contacted. I'd have to tell them I'd be home late the next day because I had detention. I think it fostered better parent relations, because they knew I'd done something to deserve it and supported the teachers decision. Rather than them getting a call to say I'd been put in isolation for wearing my tie wrong or for wearing shoes that were not quite right.

Firecarrier · 12/12/2023 23:20

It's the same at college.

Parents insisting their child 'can't help' telling us to Fuck off because of ADHD/anxiety etc but it's fine for us to be verbally abused and disrespected when simply trying to do a job.