To think ‘teenage teachers’ are not the answer

[Xmasinfrance]

to the recruitment and retention crisis?

“Postgraduate teaching apprenticeships already exist but the Department for Education is drawing up plans for degree apprenticeships that would involve trainees as young as 18 years old being in the classroom alongside experienced teachers.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/teenage-teachers-in-classroom-under-new-apprenticeships-hqqjf299p

I’m not sure I would’ve trusted an 18 year old to teach me as a Year 11 in high school.

Yes I am joking but there is a point there about the insidious long-term devaluing of the profession there has been since I first started in the 80s and if I'm honest even before that. Of course I agree with you about Ofsted

They brought in the HLTA, a TA that could teach a whole primary class with way less training or qualification than a teacher.

Then they seemed to drop the HLTA qualification or any need to have it, so that heads can just use any TA, tell them they are being paid as an HLTA for x hours and use them as cheap supply.

This is insane. How can someone teach a secondary class, just knowing the same as the A level pupils? Teachers must need to know loads more than the topic they are teaching that day!

There’s a place for teaching apprenticeships, but it’s not in the secondary sector for school leavers. As a route into teaching for someone with the requisite subject knowledge and skills, fine. It works well in FE in a number of vocational areas. But this idea has no merit at all.

@Shinyandnew1 This sounds like a degree apprenticeship, so there would be a degree at the end.

I was thinking the scheme would attract more people into teaching, through financial incentives, and so take a few years to show results. My thinking was that until, say, Y3 of the scheme the trainees would not be able to lead a class. They might be a net drain on their mentors. Particularly in secondary.

It sounds like the teachers and other knowledgeable MumsNetters think the plan is to put young people in charge of a classroom much sooner? No. Just no.

They might be a net drain on their mentors. Particularly in secondary

Two of the three secondary trainees with subject degrees that I have on placement at the moment are a net drain on their mentors. We've had a run of terrible trainees in one subject, so we're no longer offering placements there. We simply don't have capacity for this.

trainees would not be able to lead a class. They might be a net drain on their mentors.

Trainees are generally a net drain on their mentors, even when leading a class.

Saying 25 is a bit arbitrary, I was a charge nurse with a one year old by that age. I'm sure a properly assessed teacher or teaching assistant would be perfectly capable.

Long, long ago (in the 1970s) I started nurse training just before my 18th birthday. We spent 6 weeks in school and then were out on the wards as a member of the team. Yes we had supervision, in the form of more experienced students (2nd and 3rd year) and one or two qualified staff, on the ward. From our second placement on we were often left as the most experienced member of staff for 20minutes to half an hour. By the end of that year, still only 18, we were left in charge of full wards of (sometimes very) sick patients, with just 2 visits per night from the Night Sister (although she was on call, woe betide you disturbed her for something she deemed unimportant).

These students are going to be full of enthusiasm, keen to engage and have supervision within the classroom. The experienced teachers will have support and be more able to give attention where it is needed.

I think it's a great idea

I was 21!

Meh, if you do a BEd you’re in the classroom from 18 and it’s fine. Usually will start with primary placements even if you’re on a secondary teaching course AFAIK. I imagine it’s similar but with a bit more teaching time which can’t be a bad thing.

Anybody who knows anything about teaching at any level knows it’s usually not a matter of being an expert but being a step ahead of what you’re teaching and having the skills to get the class engaged with the work.

Same. And I work in industry now and see that side, but yep, no way I would encourage anyone.

Isn’t it something like 40% of ECTs who leave within the first five years?

I think that the reasons for this need to be resolved before we bung teenagers who’ve only just finished their A levels into the mix.

I did my teacher training aged just turned 22. The school I did my first placement at only went to 16 so that was okay, but in my placement two where the kids went up to almost 19 I felt a bit like I was the same age as them. That would obviously be worse at potentially just 18. But you could mitigate that by having these 18yr olds just doing their classroom experience with KS3 in secondary and moving up to the older ones later in the qualification. Primary it wouldn't matter as much.

These students are going to be full of enthusiasm, keen to engage and have supervision within the classroom. The experienced teachers will have support and be more able to give attention where it is needed.

Enthusiasm doesn’t equate to helpfulness. Having an additional and sometimes incompetent adult in the room just means more work for the teacher. I had a lovely TA start in my class and she’d never done the role before. I had to take her through everything in detail before setting her off. The year before, I’d had a TA who had been working far longer than me and she was worth her weight in gold. The new TA learned quickly, luckily, and she was brilliant by the end but still a lot of hard work for me.

Also, I remember a lot of arrogance when I was training and students thinking they knew better. Can’t imagine they were all that helpful in the classroom.

I’m a teacher and trained as an undergrad. I was on placement in a school when I was still 18 and taught lessons. Age doesn’t equal suitability, responsibility or professionalism.

I did a 4 year joint honours BA degree in primary education and another subject. I started at the age of 18.

In the 1970s young people were far more resilient to handle this than what we've done to young people of the 2020s.

I’d imagine the degree apprentices would just be TAs until they were qualified in the subject anyway.

I think the horror at 18 year olds being too young and wanting to shift things ever upward is weirdly 2020s as logic. 40 years ago people didn’t act like 20 year olds are still babies and need to be looked after.

The age of the trainees isn’t the biggest issue here. Well it might be for sixth form but I don’t think these apprentices would be going in to sixth form. It’s the lack of capacity to provide the support they need. Putting even more responsibility and pressure on experienced teachers is only going to make retention worse.

I did a 3 years secondary with QTS degree at undergrad and had a 6 weeks placement a few weeks after my 18th birthday. I don't think that apprentiships are a good idea because there isn't the staffing or infrastructure to support them and invariably they'll be left on their own; but honestly my age on placement was never an issue and I'm short and look younger than I am! The government will keep doing this across shortages instead of addressing the reason for said shortages.

These students are going to be full of enthusiasm, keen to engage and have supervision within the classroom. The experienced teachers will have support and be more able to give attention where it is needed.

This feels over optimistic.

The students may well be far from enthusiastic and keen. I’ve tried to teach undergrads (including in education) and they’re not all full of vim.

The experienced teachers may well have the opposite of support. They have an additional responsibility that is more work than just teaching the class themselves.

Teachers aren’t generally given any release time to support students or ECTs-it’s a huge extra job for them to do and one that I often see cited as a reason for wanting to leave the profession altogether. It’s just one more huge job to be responsible for.

I can imagine having to single-handedly train a teenager how to be a teacher would be even worse and the impact on existing staff workload and wellbeing should be very carefully considered.

I was one of a small group of mature students on my teaching degree, everyone else was 18. We had placements from the get go so lots of 18 years old in school teaching singular lessons at first, progressing to full control of the class towards the end of placement.

Primary or secondary?

This is the main issue isn't it. If teachers actually had time to do this rather than just expected to do it on top of an unmanageable workload then most would enjoy it! It's not the case though, we all know as well these apprentices will be plugged into gaps before they're ready which isn't fair on them or on the students. I do think if we were adequately staffed and had sufficient funding then a scheme like this would be okay.