Cry it out - abuse?

[CeCe2023]

I’ve recently been on Reddit and have stumbled across a sleep training page, I find the whole thing fascinating and perhaps something we might look into in future if needed (baby wakes often and currently co-sleep/bassinet mix) but would want to avoid any form of crying it out at all! And I don’t think you can ‘train’ a baby, but support better habits perhaps.

What I can’t believe is the amount of posts from parents who are doing full cry it out and what they call ‘extinction’ methods where the withdraw all support which was previously there. Juts a couple I have read tonight 1 one where baby cried for 3.5 hours until sick and parents intervened and one where baby is only 5 months (so likely going through a regression) and as they’ve been waking every 45 minutes the parents have gone to full cry it out and left them alone in a room all night.

Comments from other posters are all ‘well done you’ and ‘sorry you’re dealing with this’ - what about the baby?!

I understand sleep deprivation, I currently get around 3-4 hours interrupted sleep a night and I respect others parenting choices but how is this not bordering on child abuse?

They celebrate when the baby falls asleep alone, but I would to if it was the middle of the night and I’d cried myself to sleep 🥹

Found the whole thing really upsetting to read.

Are the posts from the States? I wonder if there are cultural differences when you have to go back to work so quickly. DD was a horrible sleeper but I had a year off!

That’s not what cry it out is supposed to be. You don’t just abandon ship! You pop in and out relatively often.

If I lived to be a thousand, I’d never do that.

Im just glad my lot slept through organically and we didn’t have to resort to any kind of training, but when I’ve done it at work, baby was “visited” every few minutes, but not picked up or chatted to. In both cases, the “training” lasted 2 days.

I think some seem to be in the US, yeah.
It’s the full extinction’ method that’s so horrible, removing any reassurance to such small babies has got to cause issues down the line surely!

@Lizzieregina can I ask what you do for a living?

I’ve been a childcare provider to infants and toddlers for 20 years, but not currently doing it.

And I’m in the US and have NEVER been asked to leave a baby to cry alone. Two families resorted to “training” and both times the crying was over by the 2nd 5 min period and done by the 3rd day.

It is, but America is so fucked up. It's very tricky to go back to work at 6 weeks, breastfeed and not sleep train I imagine. The whole approach is messed up.

I abhor sleep training tbh.

It's neglect, just as harmful as abuse. I'm in the US and "sleep training" is just cry it out, rebranded. I have seen a lot of mothers clarify how many minutes they are willing to go, like 3-5 minutes. Maybe a little longer is ok? But most of the time it's just abandoning baby, alone in a dark room. Alone and crying has to be one of the worst feelings in the world, I would never want my kids to feel that. Mine have all been able to get into healthy sleeping patterns without it too.

There’s evidence that hi cry it out causes trauma. It works, but only because babies learn that no-one comes if you cry.
Lizzieregina are you thinking of controlled crying? That’s when you come back at intervals, making it longer each time. Cry it out is when you literally leave the baby to cry themselves to sleep.

I don't see how you could manage a return to work so soon without either that or co sleeping.

Yes, it’s horrible but if the alternative is driving down a freeway to work on 2 hours sleep, you understand why people do it.

Absolutely baffles me that the US thinks of itself as one of the most developed countries in the world and then forces women back to work so early, it’s barbaric.

Absolutely neglect. How anyone can treat their child like that is beyond me, and I'm a parent to 2 young children, so I Absolutely do understand the sleep deprivation.

I've been lucky in that my kids have just started sleeping through the night without having to do these things so I understand it's easy for me to say but

I‘m glad most agree, it was truly shocking to read some accounts on there. However I do understand that the US is awful for parental leave and it must be a tough decision to make, but I do stand by that it is harmful. You can’t choose to bring a human into this world to then find them an inconvenience - again speaking as someone who has a 5 month old who has never slept more than a couple of hours in her own space and wakes up very very regularly!

Sorry baby nearly fell off the bed 🤣

*but I couldn't do it. I think it does border on abuse and is definitely emotionally damaging. Having said that, when I've been getting them to nap in their cots during the day I've left them to grizzle for up to a minute at a time and then gone in and stroked and kisses their head before leaving again, even that is hard enough!

I can't imagine how frightening it must be being trapped in their cot in a pitch black room with no one coming to help 😢

Obviously 6 weeks is even shorter, but working mothers had only say 3 months maternity leave in the past, as a rule?

My mother had that on the continent many decades ago. (And she was responsible for people in her job such that she couldn't do it sleep deprived.)

Even HV in the uk don’t talk about CIO or controlled crying

they advise gradual retreat ( we was under the sleep clinic with DD)

saying that we still cuddle to sleep at 6&3.

I stepped back from a friendship when newish friend told me her dd went in her own room from out of hospital (week old) and was left all night and not seek to at all. Not fed either..felt quite ill she could do that. Though I suspect it was her abusive dh's idea.. I sleep trained 2 dc which involved letting them cry initially for 1 minute. Never more than a whimper after 3 intervals and slept through on night 3...

There’s categorically no evidence of what you say - research has found no difference in long-term attachment outcomes at all. The only ‘evidence’ is of a short-term uncoupling of baby and mother cortisol response, this has been interpreted by some as possibly a negative outcome. However, I would argue that reducing stress in the infant-parent dyad is probably a good thing.

There is, however, plenty of evidence that exhausted, stressed and angry parents are less responsive and less emotionally capable than well-rested parents.

Agree with this.

These judgmental parenting bashing threads are unnecessary.

@Didimum I don’t mean to come from a place of judgement, and I understand some forms of ‘sleep training’ work well for people.

I haven’t had more than a few hours sleep since July and have had incredibly hard times with deprivation and stress and it’s only after hitting rock bottom that I’ve reached a level of acceptance that my DD just needs more support (and contact) to sleep and I’m happy to provide that until she is ready to sleep alone and hopefully better (hopefully soon)

But CIO is a different kettle of fish altogether - the experiences I’ve seen mention babies being sick, their throats being red raw and them then associating bedtime with fear, only for the parents to be told to keep going and ‘hold the fort’. Honestly worrying.

But I’m no expert and maybe I’m naive.

@CeCe2023 that’s exactly it
i think we tried it when older was about a year old as I was desperate for sleep.
after 50 seconds me and hubby were both running to the room as she sounded so scared and it physically hurt us listening to it.
we never tried again.

to me it’s childist and psychological abuse.

i say to people. - do you sleep alone, if you wake in the night and are thirsty etc does someone stop you from having a drink, are you made to sit in wet clothing?
if you need a cuddle are you told no?

if you can’t tell I gentle parent and am aware of childism and try my hardest to not be childist

I do think it’s an American thing. I’m on an American parenting forum for mums of babies all born in the same month as DS. I was shocked how many mums put their babies in a bedroom alone from weeks old (totally against safety guidance!). One particular mum proudly stated the day her babies come home from hospital they sleep in another room all night and she just pops in and out to feed. She said her 3 year old has never ever shared a bed with her, even when sick.

I am not anti sleep training but it needs to be done at an appropriate age and you don’t just shut the door and not return until the morning!

I 'just closed my eyes for a minute' and nearly went under the wheels of an LGV on the M6. That night, we sleep trained.

18m of interrupted sleep, two very litte kids and a job with significant daily commutes (4-5h per day).

We'd done sleep courses, read books, spoken to a consultant, I slept in his floor holding his hand etc etc etc. I hadn't got any 'more support and contact' to give.

I was dangerous. So I thought sleep training & a living parent was probably better than taking myself & possibly several other commuters out in rush hour.

No doubt, being a better mum than I, you would have changed careers immediately. Or even better, not worked.

You absolutely ARE being judgemental and naive.

YANBU OP I think leaving a small baby alone in a dark room to cry all night is barbaric.
Im not saying anything about more gentle methods of sleep training - I can understand why people would resort to that. But CIO is neglectful IMO.

I was lucky though in that I had a year off with DD, she wasn’t a terrible sleeper as such but not great either. She slept with me until she was 3 and then in to her own room and she is still to this day an excellent sleeper. So not only was I the opposite end of the spectrum to CIO but I had an easy(ish) baby. So I am probably slightly biased!