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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be filled with panic about WFH culture becoming a thing of the past?

565 replies

themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 00:39

prefacing with please read the context before blanket responses 😊

I am stressing away as I tend to do lately on the same topic. I have WFH since the pandemic, with the odd day or so in the office I am lucky to have full flexibility with.

I have Autism. I also have ADHD. The combo together is quite the clusterfuck to navigate as a newly diagnosed female. Essentially the pandemic shone a light on so much and I'm so grateful that it enabled me to seek diagnosis, as much as it's an ongoing struggle.

From working remotely since the beginning I've never felt more stable and successful in my career. I was able to secure a promotion into a field I'd never have had the confidence to try in a non-remote setting in the first place, and I've been fortunate to earn a fair bit more as a result.

I feel completely at ease in my own environment and with the ability to tailor things to what works well for me. Having that commute time back has helped my wellbeing, as has having my lunch breaks in my own home. I am in a routine that I feel helps my mental health and the challenges neurodiversity brings me massively.

My current employer is great but they are the type of company that won't be around forever unfortunately. And from a lot of media and on here etc, it's becoming obvious that things are shifting to either back in the office or a hybrid with a good half your days expected in the office.

This absolutely fills me with dread. I feel like it would turn my world upside down. I'm sure people who don't relate to this will think I'm being dramatic but change and environments outside of your own control are so so hard especially once you've had several years of the opposite.

I guess I'm just wondering where this leaves me. I still have a few friends who WFH but not in my industry. I'm not sure if there would be more flexibility for me, but I also worry about how that will reflect towards my colleagues and I don't want to get anyone's back up. I guess I'm catastrophising that if I need to find another job I'll never be able to maintain what is working so well for me.

Not sure what I'm seeking here to be honest - reassurance maybe or just help to navigate this and whether it's best to be upfront with new employers from the start, or whether that might reduce my chances of being hired. I've been told I don't present as autistic, or typical ADHD but I guess the mix of both means it's a lot more blended. Either way I have generally got good feedback from interviews so it would likely not be known unless I was transparent.

I'd especially like to hear from someone in a similar boat too, if there is anyone? Probably not at twenty to one on a weekday though I imagine 😅

Thanks to anyone who has read this to the end as I know that got wordy!

OP posts:
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7
TrashedSofa · 01/12/2023 12:42

Naptrappedmummy · 01/12/2023 10:59

Yep I agree. ‘I’ve done all my socialising and pub nights and have settled down, so I’m happy for everyone else to sit alone at home all day so I can too’.

Show quote history

Never any mention of young people who don't fit that narrow paradigm. What about the young people who don't want to or can't move to a new city for work, who now have a chance at the job purely because it can be done remotely? The young people who are excluded by the socialisation rather than who benefit from it? They count as young people too, and they were always disadvantaged by the expectation of office based working.

Rosscameasdoody · 01/12/2023 12:42

bellac11 · 01/12/2023 10:20

Yes Im registered blind but have successfully managed to become a bus driver.

There are 'reasonable' adjustments for the business needs of your service, not carte blanche to just say you have a disability and therefore anything goes.

Show quote history

And there is the Equality Act 2010 to give guidance on what is, and isn’t reasonable - not to mention, what does, and doesn’t constitute a disability. The employee’s health condition has to qualify as a disability under the Act in order for them to be considered as having protected characteristics, and therefore compelling the employer to work with the employee to find a reasonable adjustment to allow that employee to do their job without being disadvantaged by their disability. So hardly carte Blanche, or anything goes.

Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 12:44

NDandMe · 01/12/2023 07:31

I hear what you're saying - I'm adhd and controlling my environment means I can function for work. I can listen to podcasts and work piecemeal when in distracted mode, and work solidly without any noise when in hyperfocus mode. I'm not uncomfortable or worried about irritating colleagues while eating at my desk etc etc. I'm not struggling with the chaos of transition between different states and travelling with higher stress levels trying to stay organised enough to get out the door.

All of this makes me sound a bit pathetic, I know.

But I earn 52k and my colleagues love me, I am very good at what I do.

I specifically went for remote roles when I changed jobs from a hybrid role. I couldn't cope with it, and had to leave. There are loads of remote-first organisations out there, especially in tech (who still need plenty of non-tech staff), who know that this is the best way to get the top talent in their teams.

You'll never be without remote opportunities. The genie isn't going back in the bottle.

Edited

Thank you for this - I can relate to your post so much, right down to the same salary!

I am exactly the same - I also like to use the pomodoro timer and have lofi music on to help me focus. I like to calendar block everything and have this on a second screen. It all works so smoothly and like a dream - id have to set up a whole new system if I transitioned back to more office days as just the one day throws me off so much as it is.

OP posts:
Clytherow · 01/12/2023 12:45

TrashedSofa · 01/12/2023 12:42

Never any mention of young people who don't fit that narrow paradigm. What about the young people who don't want to or can't move to a new city for work, who now have a chance at the job purely because it can be done remotely? The young people who are excluded by the socialisation rather than who benefit from it? They count as young people too, and they were always disadvantaged by the expectation of office based working.

Show quote history

Plenty of young people prefer to work remotely, there's this weird narrative that they all want to be in the office, and that's not my experience at all.

Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 12:46

3luckystars · 01/12/2023 07:37

This is a ‘reasonable accommodation’ and you could get a medical note to cover you, it wouldn’t have to go into detail.

Don’t worry about anyone else, I’m sure you would not care if you heard ‘your colleague Anna was working from home on medical grounds’ you would not even question it.

Dong meet trouble have way. Be prepared but stop worrying. It’s like sitting on a rocking chair, it’s keeping you busy but getting you nowhere.

I wish you all the best and well done btw!!!

Thank you this is great advice. I know all the worrying does is stress me out!

And you are right, I wouldn't be worried or annoyed by someone else working remote for valid reasons I'd just ask that it was fair amongst those who needed it ie. Proof of diagnosis or similar

OP posts:
Rosscameasdoody · 01/12/2023 12:47

enchantedsquirrelwood · 01/12/2023 12:02

Oh FGS. If you have heavy periods you need to be close to a loo THE WHOLE TIME to avoid leaking everywhere!

So the journey to work is the problem. Therefore the reasonable adjustment is to allow 2-3 days a month working from home to avoid the journey.

I am somewhat aghast that I need to spell this out,

And lots of people do Teams calls in the office because (gasp) not everyone is in the same office as they are and so they need to talk to them by a mean that isn't face to face.

other examples - my DH had a cold this week. Not that bad, but he didn't feel like the 90 minute commute to work. He was able to work from home.

I have always suffered from headaches. If I had to go into the office every day I'd miss a lot of days sick. Being able to work from home means that I can lie down for a bit until it goes and work the rest of the day.

Show quote history

I’m aghast that you think heavy periods qualifies you as disabled under the Equality Act and entitled to reasonable adjustment !! Unless there is an underlying medical condition for it which thus qualifies the person. Same for a heavy cold or headaches.

Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 12:48

gnarlynarwhal · 01/12/2023 07:37

I totally get where you are coming from OP. I’ve never been happier since I’ve been wfh. It means I get to work in a nice quiet room away from distractions and all the office politics and gossip. On the odd day I do go in I get far less done and end up spending money on things I don’t need. When I work in the office I lose an extra hour and spend money on fuel. The last time I went in I had to sit there and listen to the office gossip slagging off a member of the team who wasn’t there and moaning about all the people who wfh all the time. I think some people see going into the office as a badge of honor.

I think the badge of honour thing is so valid especially with some of these employers admitting they limit opportunities for promotion if you work remotely - it's such an outdated attitude and I don't understand how they can get away with it

OP posts:
bellac11 · 01/12/2023 12:50

Clytherow · 01/12/2023 12:45

Plenty of young people prefer to work remotely, there's this weird narrative that they all want to be in the office, and that's not my experience at all.

Show quote history

Yes they do want to work remotely because they havent got the social skills/coping skills to manage the world of work. It doesnt mean its right for their learning experience or the needs of the business

Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 12:51

Direstraightsagain · 01/12/2023 07:38

I feel for you OP. But like others have said enjoy what you have. Sounds like you’re doing well do for now don’t worry. There’s a trend back to the office but it’s not all jobs. So wait till it happens.

I’m love hybrid rather than 100 remote.
I also love the flexibility. The reason firms are getting people back to the office is because of the number of people that take the absolute piss. Loads of people work hard (including you OP) but a lot of people have spoilt hybrid working for the rest of us and have caused this shift. I would say about 25% of people work shorter hours, and do less work if I take the two offices I’ve worked in over this period. There’s certain people I know will not be around after 3.3@/4 wven though they don’t have a specific arrangement. The other 75% pick up the slack and now are having to contemplate full time in the office! Sorry for winge OP

You're so right. I guess the school run and after this is a big point of contention, there has to be a way around this though, at least I hope so as it's unfair to ruin it for the majority who actually work their allocated hours and sometimes later if required.

I'm fortunate that I can also work my allocated hours throughout the day as I wish and my employer allows us to take breaks when we wish for as long as we need as long as the work is done - output not hours is their motto. Though I understand not all employers will have this approach.

I quite often work past 6pm as this then allows me to have some breaks when I need them etc, I feel like performance reviews could maybe be used to inform WFH - if you are doing well and meeting expectations, hitting deadlines etc you should be trusted to manage your own schedule perhaps

OP posts:
TrashedSofa · 01/12/2023 13:08

Clytherow · 01/12/2023 12:45

Plenty of young people prefer to work remotely, there's this weird narrative that they all want to be in the office, and that's not my experience at all.

Show quote history

Yes, it's a popular refrain on here! But we do sometimes hear from younger workers who take a different position, it's happened on threads in the past.

In reality, young workers aren't a monolith any more than any other group are. Remote working is great for some of them, awful for some of them, neutral for some of them. And that was always the way, but the ones who were excluded and disadvantaged by office based work as a norm went unnoticed.

Posters who tell us how important it was for them to be physically around other staff and how much they benefitted from after work drinks with the bosses 20 years ago are speaking in good faith. But they're generally failing to recognise that their experiences are not the default, and that what worked for them was actively detrimental to some people.

Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 13:14

Teateaandmoretea · 01/12/2023 07:38

It's not going to become a thing of the past. Companies like that they have more choice of candidates, that people will accept lower salaries and that they don't have to pay for as much office space.

All of the negative stuff is largely from people who are not allowed to wfh and those with city centre property portfolios. In terms of absenteeism and people 'taking the piss' they surely have to actually deliver the work and if not then they will end up under competency? People have always taken the piss (Monday sick days etc) and someone sat in an office doesn't mean they are working.

The only true negative for me is in terms of team training and that I don't think it's great for young people.

Completely agree with you, presenteeism is a huge thing - people in the office but potentially not actually doing much work. I've seen this a lot and people just chatting all day and not a whole lot of output.

Also agree with your points and hence a need for some in office time as well, at least on some level.

OP posts:
Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 13:19

S23 · 01/12/2023 07:48

To give a slightly different perspective to your situation.

My DH, who we both strongly suspect is ASD, was hybrid for a year before lockdown (3 days WFH, one in the office) then has been fully WFH since March 2023 in our very rural property.

Prior to us meeting he had been travelling working as a diving instructor, and living in a house share in London and working office based.

My understanding of ASD is that a lot of effort is required to learn social skills that are instinctive in NT people. As with any learnt skill though, practice makes perfect, and skills need to be used to be maintained.

I feel my DH is loosing these social skills now he has been WFH for so long, and it is impacting on our marriage and other aspects of DH life as he is becoming increasingly socially isolated.

OP, you say people say you don't present as autistic, which suggests that you have refined your learnt social skills. If you WFH for ever more then you may undo this hard work, and then what happens in work and life?

I think their needs to be balance, and hybrid seems to be a reasonable compromise for employers and employees in this situation.
However, I do appreciate that hybrid working may not be the solution for a NT employee who is physically disabled in a way that makes travel or being away from the home challenging).

I see what you're saying and I agree that some presence in the office is a good thing for relationship building and social skills.

My role has a lot of meetings so there is a lot of group collaboration so I don't feel so isolated, and I do still go in from time to time. In addition I have a good group of friends around me (both ND and NT), and make time for hobbies etc so there is interaction with the 'outside world' so to speak in my general life.

I agree though that there does need to be some level of interaction with people to limit it becoming an issue - I still think some of this can be done over video calls but face to face for key meetings etc is a sensible approach

OP posts:
Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 13:22

Scottishskifun · 01/12/2023 07:53

Its worth getting reasonable adjustments agreed and in place with your employer but also any future employer, autism is classed as a disability and therefore workplaces need to have reasonable adjustments. Obviously this doesn't work for certain industries/jobs and wfh such as a vet or nurse.
Maybe even having it agreed with your work now will put you more at ease and it's then a document you can take with you?

I have one in place due to long covid and fatigue. Being in the office actually makes me far worse I do like going in so try for a few hours a week. From experience I would say how easy or hard it is depends on the line manager. My old one I had to go over their heads to HR and senior bosses as they saw it as not being fair and I should be doing or working towards the 3 days a week like others.....which ironically was then leading to me doing less work as I was ill after attendance.

Join a union as well mine were amazing support when needed.

Thank you that's a good tip on the union.

I'm so lucky to have a great manager now as well as at my previous company, which is probably while I am spiralling that next time I might not get someone so understanding!

I need to look into the whole reasonable adjustments process a bit further.. it seems some see this as a well respected right but others don't see any value or validity to it...

OP posts:
Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 13:28

TheWayTheLightFalls · 01/12/2023 08:10

I’ve only read the first and fourth pages, apologies - will go back. I’m most of the way through a combined autism and ADHD diagnosis. It’s a complete headfuck and I agree OP that creating or arranging a work environment to suit someone with this kind of profile is incredibly difficult - I can’t speak for you or anyone else but I thrive on chaos one day and need monastic silence the next.

I burnt out of corporate life. I now run a small organisation (a charity), doing very well. No small irony, a lot of our volunteers seem to have ND traits - so I’ve apparently set up something that works for a particular kind of person.

I posted the other day, unsuccessfully, about how sad I feel about being locked out of so many workplaces - being smart and high achieving but becoming a diminished version of myself if the environment isn’t right. So I don’t have any advice for now, but I empathise.

Thank you for this, I totally relate to you - some days I love the chaos too and solving problems, thinking on my feet and going a hundred miles an hour. Other days I need to just be able to change the pace and have a day where I don't want to talk to too many people if I can help it, so I try to make one day a week with minimal meetings as a bit of a recharge and clear my backlog of tasks day.

It's great you've set up a business and something that is attracting fellow ND people 😊

OP posts:
Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 13:34

Kittylala · 01/12/2023 08:42

Why don't you start a business that supports and champions autistic people working from home.

Just like that? I don't think 'just go and start a business' is very practical advice, sorry.

OP posts:
Clytherow · 01/12/2023 13:34

bellac11 · 01/12/2023 12:50

Yes they do want to work remotely because they havent got the social skills/coping skills to manage the world of work. It doesnt mean its right for their learning experience or the needs of the business

Show quote history

I spent the first 15 years of my working life in an office around other people. I knew at the start of those 15 years I didn't like to be around people all day, and I still know that now. Those 15 years I was forced to be "in" didn't change that one jot.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/12/2023 13:35

S23 · 01/12/2023 07:48

To give a slightly different perspective to your situation.

My DH, who we both strongly suspect is ASD, was hybrid for a year before lockdown (3 days WFH, one in the office) then has been fully WFH since March 2023 in our very rural property.

Prior to us meeting he had been travelling working as a diving instructor, and living in a house share in London and working office based.

My understanding of ASD is that a lot of effort is required to learn social skills that are instinctive in NT people. As with any learnt skill though, practice makes perfect, and skills need to be used to be maintained.

I feel my DH is loosing these social skills now he has been WFH for so long, and it is impacting on our marriage and other aspects of DH life as he is becoming increasingly socially isolated.

OP, you say people say you don't present as autistic, which suggests that you have refined your learnt social skills. If you WFH for ever more then you may undo this hard work, and then what happens in work and life?

I think their needs to be balance, and hybrid seems to be a reasonable compromise for employers and employees in this situation.
However, I do appreciate that hybrid working may not be the solution for a NT employee who is physically disabled in a way that makes travel or being away from the home challenging).

Hi, actually autistic here.

My understanding of ASD is that a lot of effort is required to learn social skills that are instinctive in NT people. As with any learnt skill though, practice makes perfect, and skills need to be used to be maintained.

  • Practice doesn't make perfect, it just makes permanent. If practice made perfect, I wouldn't be still committing the same social errors that I was making in my twenties. Coaching is far more helpful than simply being sent to the office five days per week. Analogy: you wouldn't teach swimming by throwing someone into ten feet of water and then acting surprised when they drowned, you'd teach them stroke techniques.
  • A lot of effort is required to learn social skills, and continued effort is required to apply them. That effort doesn't actually contribute to the business deliverables of a non-customer-facing job and reduces the mental capacity available to doing the work that the business actually needs.
  • The continued effort to apply social skills is called "masking" and it is exhausting and causes burnout. You are asking your husband to exhaust himself and make himself mentally ill for the sake of social niceties. If he doesn't actually need to do that, he shouldn't for the sake of his mental health.

OP, you say people say you don't present as autistic, which suggests that you have refined your learnt social skills. If you WFH for ever more then you may undo this hard work, and then what happens in work and life

Translation: "OP, you might stop the habit of masking and NT people are so fragile that they cannot cope with you not masking." Remind me again who is allegedly being unreasonable here?

Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 13:36

Decemberdodo · 01/12/2023 08:43

I'm disabled in a way that means I could only work from home. I'm attempting what the government claim they want disabled people to do, I'm retraining after a decade out of the workforce in the hope of getting a WFH role.

Fortunately I'm not doing this because I need to, but because I want to, but I am concerned that there just won't be any opportunities that are fully remote when I finish the training.

It would be a real shame though, because I'm a hard worker, despite everything I have to cope with, and know I'd be a reliable employee, as I was before the disability.

I assume you could ask for reasonable adjustments in the same way as I could, hopefully?

I feel like we need a publicised list of supportive employers across the country we can apply to and not have to hide any of this from...

OP posts:
Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 13:38

Naptrappedmummy · 01/12/2023 08:50

I understand why it’s better for you and hope you can find a solution, but it’s my belief wfh has created a nation of people with social anxiety and a form of agoraphobia. Look at the number of kids who were ok before lockdown but refused to go back to school after. Despite what tiktok tells us human beings are broadly social creatures who benefit from human interaction even if it’s with people they don’t really really like. Isolated elderly people are more likely to suffer from dementia. It might be easier in the moment to stay at home in pyjamas and not go to work but I think years of it will have a very negative mental effect on our population. DP and I are sociable people and we’ve been flat and depressed since wfh became the norm

This is why it's a different approach for each individual though right? I absolutely agree you should be made to be remote if it doesn't work for you - in the same way I shouldn't be forced into the office.

I feel like we should be trusted to make the decisions that work for us. There will always be people who prefer an office setting and there will also be people who want to be mostly remote. I assume a big chunk of people fall inbetween, which gives a good mix to make it work? Not sure if I'm being naive here..!

OP posts:
Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 13:38

Catza · 01/12/2023 08:55

I worked in the office all through the pandemic and transitioned to WFH 18 months ago when the rest of the world was moving in the opposite direction. As I work with people with chronic illnesses, I can tell you that WFH is not going anywhere. In the last 18 months, we negotiated hundreds of WFH contracts for people who otherwise would not be able to carry on in their roles as part of reasonable adjustments policy. These were in quite diverse industries from NHS to social services to large manufacturer engineering departments.
If you go on indeed or similar websites, you will see that there are multiple roles advertised as remote or hybrid working. I recently turned down a job offer as it would mean going back to the office full time, which I don't want to do for similar reasons as yours.

Thank you so much, I will take a look. This is really great to hear.

OP posts:
Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 13:40

Timetogosouth · 01/12/2023 09:01

Youve had great advice already OP .I like to plan everything to give me less to worry about . My suggestion would be that while you are happily employed wfh you create a savings buffer to give you more time to find a new job should you have to . If it happens then you go to your interviews and negotiate for what suits you when you have an offer . The financial buffer will give you more time to keep searching for the working arrangement you want . Hopefully knowing you’ve made a plan will help you stop worrying ?

Thank you. This is what I'd like to do (just need to get my wedding out of the way first - which I'm planning as a tiny elopement for all of the reasons in my original post 😅) but it's a very sensible idea to prevent any panic jumping into the wrong role later down the line

OP posts:
Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 13:42

Worldgonecrazy · 01/12/2023 09:20

I haven’t read the whole thread but as a ND person, I find that having my own desk rather than hot desking helps a lot when I need to go to the office. We also have a quiet room for if things get overwhelming. This is a true quiet space, not just a quiet working space. I think there is a happy medium to be reached.

I'm glad you have your own desk, I hate hot desking! It seems common place in recent companies I've worked now unfortunately. I like things a certain way.. back in the pre pandemic days I would lose my mind if someone had sat at my desk and adjusted my screen or chair 😅 (internally though haha)

OP posts:
Original poster
themusingsofaninsomniac · 01/12/2023 13:43

Rosscameasdoody · 01/12/2023 09:30

OP, I think you need to familiarise yourself with the upcoming changes to the welfare system for those with disabilities/health conditions. I realise you’re not unemployed but the changes will have a knock on effect for those disabled people who are already in employment and possibly struggling in the workplace.

The government is introducing policy to get more disabled people into work via WFH. I’m critical of the plans as they apply to those who are too sick to work, but in your case I think the new legislation they will need to introduce to underpin it, together with existing legislation under the Equality Act 2010 may work to your advantage. If and when the situation arises, you could approach an employer and ask for WFH as a ‘reasonable adjustment’ under the Act. The link to the Equality Act 2010 is below and sections 20 and 21 deal explain what reasonable adjustment means.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

Thank you, I will take a read of this.

OP posts:
FluffyMochi · 01/12/2023 13:43

I hate working from home. I live in a small flat and absolutely need that separation between work and home. If my job ever made me even remote one day a week I would quit.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/12/2023 13:47

FluffyMochi · 01/12/2023 13:43

I hate working from home. I live in a small flat and absolutely need that separation between work and home. If my job ever made me even remote one day a week I would quit.

WFH, stop paying to commute, buy bigger flat with box room, use box room as office?