To ask about civil service working hours and progression?

[notsallyrooney]

Thinking about a CS job at SEO level - don’t want to say much as outing but wonder if any civil servants can help me with the following:

• What is a “full time” contract? I’ve seen “42 hours including lunch breaks” but that’s not helping me as I don’t know how long a lunch break?! Current employer full time = 36.5hrs (not including lunches)

• How do you move up within the band? So SEO starts at about 37k which is maybe 2k more than my current salary (where I’m at the top of my grade and have a progression point and am now stuck forever 😂 as I work in HE where nobody ever leaves!)

I’m just not sure if the switch is worth it at the moment if I won’t be able to move up (more than whatever the yearly % rise is?) Especially when I consider the fact that my annual leave is currently 43 days and would go down to 34 days (25+bank hol+kings birthday). I know I could balance out the drop in leave by taking parental leave and potentially buying some more, but both of those options would mean I wouldn’t really be earning any extra in the CS job which I had hoped to do..

Any advice much appreciated. Sorry for posting in aibu for traffic!

Assume 1hr lunch breaks. Standard hours for Civil Service are 37, used to be 36 in London.

Don’t they still get half a day on Maundy Thursday?

See what the flexitime is like. Used to be good for topping up leave.

It will be 37 hrs plus one hr unpaid lunch break a day. Your salary only increases as per whatever the annual pay deal is with the Treasury. Keep in mind the employer pension contributions are 27% though which is way higher than most employers.

The civil service is massive. It depends what department you are employed in, and what job you are doing

I’ve done the HE to civil service jump. Took a pay cut as well as annual leave cut (but the pension is worth it) and whilst I’m less stressed, I’m also very bored. But I only work in one small bit of a smaller department and I’ve no idea if what I say is representative.

full time hours are, I think, 37.5 a week (might be 37, I’m on a part time contract so I don’t actually know). I took a massive cut in annual leave but in HE I worked so many extra hours - now, when I work extra hours I take them off as flexi, so the difference feels less extreme.

In My department (not sure if this is everywhere) you don’t get automatic increments, just the cost of living rose. However there are plenty of opportunities to go from SEO to G7.

I find the culture very weird. Made me realise HE is pretty dynamic and they way we’ve responded to change in HE feels quite different. Also, I can’t get over the people who have worked 30+ years in the same department. Quite a few who are 40+ years. This contributes to the “lack of dynamic culture”, I’m sure!

Unlike in HE, I’ve found that people seem to move around jobs quite a bit.

So standard lunch break is an hour. Depending on which part of the civil service though, you normally have flexi time. So you can choose to work 9-5.30 with an hour lunch break for example or 9-5 with a half hour lunch. You could also work some longer days and some shorter days, though generally you have to be there from 10-4 (core hours). And that kind of leads into holiday a bit as you get to take up to 2 days a month flexi in additional to your normal holidays - although depending on workload you may not be able to take them. There's also lots of folk who work compressed hours like 10 days in 9 or 5 days in 4.

Progression is harder at SEO level. You'd be stuck at the same salary for a couple of years and realistically probably need to change jobs to get more, but lots of people change jobs regularly.

Amazed you have 43 days leave at present, that's incredibly unusual. Most jobs start at 25.

In my dept it’s 37 hours and flexi time so you work them when you like between 7am and 8pm. Minimum half hour unpaid lunch break if working more than 6 hours.

in my dept ridiculously it seems you can’t actually move up through the band 🙄
promotion to G7 from SEO is not that easy where I am but might be easier in London compared to the provinces and totally depends on your area of work

@Haveyouseenthemuffinman my experience was totally different, the most hectic job I've had with a wide variety of work and responsibility. Also people generally left every couple of years and it was a very young department. I know it really varies.

37 hour weeks, 36 in London (and London weighting)

No movement within the band other than the yearly rise, you’d have to get a promotion (from what I’ve witnessed from working all over the country and in various depts, I’d say this is easier in London and the grades are dumbed down - G6 in London is more like a G7 elsewhere, G7 more like SEO etc)

The pension is one of the best you can get, still a defined benefit scheme (you simply can’t get these in private sector these days) and costs you very little comparatively for what you end up with.

Flexible hours and working. Annual leave usually starts at 25 days rising to 30 after 10 years.

It depends so much on your department. Everyone in my department starts on 30 days leave plus public holidays. We work a 37 hour week (and they're going to pilot a 35 hour week next year) and Flexi working is standard. We have lots of interesting policy areas but promotion from SEO to grade 7 is much more competitive than it is in many other departments.

37 hours, you don't progress through the bands it's COL increase set by Treasury and minimal. Moving from SEO to G7 is difficult in my department and requires years of experience. Specialist ALB.

It depends in the department. Our contracts are 37 hours plus an hour for lunch. No increments so pay progression is poor in my experience, we just got a pay deal but it's my first for about 10 years. No flexi where I am but we work flexibly so lots of people do the school run at the moment and are making the most of it as we are going up to 3 days in the office in the new year so will lose that flexibility. Also be wary of the department as despite the contract my SEOs regularly work over 50 hours, G7 and above more. It's not the sort of culture where you do your hours and log off as SEO level where I am carries a lot of responsibility to get the job done.

Half day Maundy Thursday was a half privilege day.
There were 2.5 privilege days in total:

Half of Maundy Thursday
One day over christmas
Sovereigns birthday

These were removed in 2013 under Cabinet Office reform, but the palace challenged removal of the Soverigns day as it had been granted by Queen Victoria not a government benefit.

New employees no longer get the 1.5 days and those post on the date of change with them as part of their employment contracts had them converted to additional leave (which means they can be taken at any time rather than the specified privilege days)
If you have any change in contract (eg promotion) then the 1.5 days are removed

As far as I am aware there is no progression within the salary bands across the civil service. They got rid of those after the 2008 recession. I don't know why they still advertise it as a range because it is misleading, unless someone was already on the higher band when they removed the increments.

Working hours should be 37 plus lunches.

7h 24min per day is what my FT contract works out as!

I came in as an SEO from another public sector organisation. The hours - role dependant - can be highly flexible, so I started at 0800 every day and buggered off earlier than everyone else.

Pay progression - there's no real pay points any more. You'll come in on the bottom of the payband, and your annual increases will be whatever the pay awards (after the union negotiations) come out with that year. You can look for the agency's pay award online. I HIGHLY recommend you join a TU.

Essentially you'll only really get to the top of the payband when the band award is narrowed down to only one or two differences....

I'm at the top of my payband because I have dropped to a HEO role in a different agency for my sanity and I have a fab boss who agreed to stick me straight in at the top because of what I brought to the party. The £10k paycut was worth every single penny. I save the better part of £100 a week in this role anyway as I'm FT WFH and all travel costs are covered because I only travel regionally, so I get hire cars and hotels etc.

There's a lot to be said about the pension, flexibility and general conditions.

As well as the change in privilege days as part of 2013 Cabinet Office reform the working hours difference between London & the rest of the UK was realigned

(There may be differences remaining depending on which government department)

A working week may have been 41 hours in London and 42 elsewhere, with 1 hour per day lunch for 5 days that would be 37 or 36 actual working hours.
After reform these were aligned to 42 / 37 hours - but existing staff may still be on the slightly shorter London hours

Annual leave will be starting at 25 days, plus 1 additional day per year worked for 5 years until it rises to 30 days.

New starters = 25 + 1 priv day + bank holidays
Rising to 30 + 1 priv day + bank holidays
Pre reform staff = 31.5 + 1 priv + bank holidays (until a change in employment contract such as promotion)

Thanks, the pension I had not really considered. My current employer is 21% (HE) so given that plus my lovely annual leave I do think maybe I should just stay put!!

Yes very lucky with my leave - also have the option to buy 2 weeks on top of that!!

Historically pay progression rose annually along spine points.
You enter the grade at minimum then expect to increment annually until grade maximum
There would also be a pay rise percentage with each spine point rising by an agreed percentage

Pay scale increments were ceased. So you remain at the scale minimum unless you promote and get to the next grades scale minimum, but whilst at that minimum provided their is a pay agreement a percentage is applied

The pay scale spine points are slowly closing up. The lowest grades have had their minimum rise up to meet their maximum

Ultimately one day every grade will have a single salary for that grade. In the meantime those on the minimum of each scale slowly close the gap between minimum and maximum

Also working in education with similar benefits to you, I think it really is a balance of what you value more. it sounds like the pension will be a little better but yours is certainly not poor, and only a £2k pay increase but a massive drop in leave. I value my huge amount of annual leave more than money and so it’s the holidays that really keep me!

To sum up:

37 hours worked, across a 42 hour week with 1 hour lunches. Which with flexi could be half hour lunches making a 39.5 hour week

25+1+8= 34 days leave / bank holidays rising over 5 years to 30+1+8=39 days

Salary expected to rise by a percentage each year, but not guaranteed depending on pay rises.

Promotion is the way to progress - which means applying for subsequent higher grade roles and successful progression - some departments can be easier than others for progression

Subject to the department and specific role there is a lot of flexibility available, with flexi time, adjusting daily hours etc

Pensions aren’t as gold plated as they were with changes to schemes over the years but remain good pensions

As others have said in nearly all departments there’s no moving up the paybands based on experience or time in post. But maybe after a few years you could apply for G7 or move sidewise at the same grade level to HMRC or one of the regulators which all see to pay about 10% more than regular civil service for equivalent roles. If you are London based promotion opportunities tend to come around more often simply because there’s a lot more senior jobs and a lot of moving in between departments (in Whitehall it’s normal to move department every few years but if you’re based outside London there might only be one department with an office in your city so it’s harder to build the breadth of experience and it can be a bit dead men’s shoes waiting for more senior roles to come up))

The actual hours depend hugely on the role - if you’re doing anything international or involving primary legislation you’re likely to work significantly more than the official hours sometimes at strange times of day. Parliament doesn’t really get started till about lunchtime and sits into the evening - so if it’s a job that involves a lot of parliamentary work you’ll be working a lot of evenings as well. Some of the more delivery type roles/ support type roles tend to have much more regular hours closer to the actual 37 in the contract.

Up until recently it has been quite good in terms of flexibility - but there’s been a recent 60% time return to the office announcement. It’s not yet clear how much this will actually be enforced especially as they gave up a lot of our office space after the lockdowns- but I don’t think you can bank on being able to mostly work home - so if remote working is important to you bear in mind they’re trying to reduce it.

Yes this is what I keep coming back to!

Thanks for this. I don’t mind attending an office but would rather not if it was going to be 60%!

Yes very lucky with my leave - also have the option to buy 2 weeks on top of that!! I’m thinking I’d like a change and some more money but actually this leaves thing means i might be wise to just stay put!!!!