What's wrong with being selfish?

[Draculina]

I'm a long time lurker (2+ years). I decided to finally register as a user to specifically bring up this subject. Please excuse my English, it's not my first language, and I'm not from an English-speaking country.

I have noticed that members of this forum often seem afraid of being, or coming off, as selfish to other other people. Am I the only one who doesn't understand why? Some examples I have seen of people being fearful of selfishness:

"I have been asked to commit to unpaid childcare for a prolonged amount of time. Am I being selfish for saying no?"

"I have been asked to lend someone I don't know very well £500 - am I being selfish for saying no?".

"I don't have kids and I have Christmas off work. My colleagues that have children pester me to give up my time off so they can spend Christmas with their family. Am I being selfish for saying no?".

"My boyfriend is lazy, dirty, doesn't pay any bills, and is actually costing me and my children money. I feel too guilty to ask him to leave, it seems like a selfish thing to do".

Why is it such a bad thing to think of your own best interests before anybody else's? Why should I think about someone else's children before I think of myself? Why should I feel bad for saying no to being used?

I'm not talking about situations where you, of course, compromise and show other people common courtesy and decency (negotiating (fairly!) time off at work with colleagues, opening doors for others, let someone get in front of you in a queue if they have less items in their cart than you, being a bit extra patient with children, lending a good friend that you trust some money if they need it, etc.). I'm talking about situations when other people want to use you, take advantage of you, or expect you to be okay with being treated as less / 2nd class, and using "selfishness" as some kind of insult or manipulative tactics to get you to agree to put yourself last and them first - because THEY are selfish and think of themselves before they think of YOU.

Why do so many people tolerate selfishness in other people, but not in themselves? I truly don't understand it...

I don't think people who phrase their questions like this ever actually believe they're being selfish: people who actually doubt themselves tend not to phrase things in a way which directs the reader so clearly towards a particular answer.

Absolutely. People-pleasers are continually burning with covert resentment because they don’t value themselves, but feel that in making frankly mad ‘sacrifices’ for others, they should get liking or respect in return, and don’t understand why their services don’t translate into friendship.

My DH’s family take this to a new level: not only do they find it incredibly difficult to say no and to state their own opinions / needs, they deeply resent the person who has put them in this position and who is ‘forcing’ them to be ‘selfish’ 🙄 . DH often comes home from work grumbling about someone asking him to do something or other that he feels is unreasonable, but when
I say ‘well, just tell them no’ he looks at me like I’m speaking Martian. He just can’t do it 🙄 . So he generally does whatever he’s been asked to do while bitterly resenting the person that ‘put’ him in the position. His parents and sister are exactly the same and it drives me potty.

I agree with many of the comments by previous posters. But I also think it is a British thing, a hang up of not wanting to offend, and needing to be seen as polite. I have travelled a fair amount over the years, and have noted many other cultures don't share the same desire to people please as the British have. I can only put it down to our Victorian heritage. 🙃

You appear to be married to my mother.

(Who also resents the hell out of the fact that I have strong, lasting friendships, despite saying ‘no’ to people. She thinks I’m ‘cheating’, somehow, I think? Like the ‘bargain’ involves doing whatever other people ask, whenever they ask it, no matter how inconvenient or taxing, and voilá, they consider you a friend, so the fact that I don’t do this is like tax-dodging…)

You have nailed it there.

There is also a subset of women who are viciously angry at other women who don't do this or sacrifice everything for their DH/ DC.
They undermine other women who have a great balance in their lives.

I don't think it would be selfish to say'No' in any of th scenarios you have outlined. There's a difference between being assertive and being selfish.

@SeethroughDress My SIL can’t understand why, despite working very hard to be ‘nice’ at all times ie put herself last, always, she ends up being bullied in every single job she has and being treated like crap by most of her ‘friends’. She’s had 20 of therapy for anxiety and depression, and she still can’t get out from under what her parents taught her about ‘not being selfish’.

I know what you mean as regards MN, OP. I have a similar irritation.

So many posters are desperate for approval - hence a lot of disclaimers and virture-signalling in OPs. For eg: people will often go to great lengths to assure us they're not racist, or selfish or bitchy, not judging or sexist, ageist etc etc. Do people really need to spell all this out all the time?

It would produce much more succinct OPs if we could just get to the point sometimes instead of hedging everything around with disclaimers. But as long as we have responses which pounce on any minor nuance and interpret it in the most negative way, it will keep happening, I guess - it's a 2-way street.

I’m also from another country and have noticed this. Same as the directness in communication issue. I don’t understand the fear of being seen to consider your own needs, or indeed the fear of being judged by others for doing so.

It does seem that people are negatively judged by some for not being willing to prioritise someone else whenever asked to, to the point where if you ever want to anything other than a complete doormat then you’re a terrible human being. Fuck that, frankly. It seems an utterly miserable way to live.

I don’t think it’s wrong to consider yourself, or to limit what you’re willing to give. If I’m called selfish and negatively judged for that then that’s fair enough - I genuinely don’t care. As far as expressions of disapproval go, ‘you’re selfish!’ is a pitiful one imo.

@Draculina in answer to your question- yes I think it can be a learned behaviour, something that people teach their children, especially girls.

For example, I was badly bullied at school, verbally and physically. When I sought help from my mum she gave me a talk about how hard the bully had it.

I can see that she only meant to teach me understanding and empathy, but the result for me was that I learned that I should put up with being punched out of sympathy for the bully.

I was only 6 years old and lacked a wider perspective.

It has taken me years to unlearn this toxic lesson.

I think that people who post about these things are in the process of trying to unlearn whatever unhelpful stuff they learned growing up, and they are looking for support to do that.

British people tend to hate to be considered as selfish, as it’s a negative trait. I get it, I don’t like people to think I’m selfish. But equally don’t want to be a push over, somewhere inbetween is what I’m working on. I’d never be accused of being selfish but I do need to say the family MN saying more often ‘sorry that doesn’t work for me’

I have occasionally been accused of selfishness, looking after no.1.
Well, who else is going to do it?

I intend to become increasingly selfish with time, having been raised to be nice at all times and put others before myself, which didn’t work out well for me.

It's a toxic combination of things:

As someone else pointed out upthread a lot of this is female socialisation: a lot of women are raised to think they exist primarily as support humans for their family and others associated with their family so they assume that it is their "job" to do pretty much anything asked of them and expect asserting boundaries to lead to being ostracised.

I think being British amplifies this hugely as many British people are socialised to believe it's rude to say you think about anything or to have strong opinions so all social interaction is conducted in a miasma of "niceness". A large proportion of the British population recoil from direct speech.

Then there is also the "manipulative" niceness of people who do far more for other people than is healthy because they convince themselves that those other people will be in their debt.

But you are correct, OP. I'm British and have lived here most of my life but have been married to someone from another culture and have also lived overseas and while there is a lot to love about this country the taboo about saying what you think about things is really very unhealthy.

This actually made me really upset for you...I think your mother most probably meant well, too, but I can totally see how it could have had a negative impact on you. I hope you know better now than to allow anybody to treat you with anything less than respect.

In your samples they are not being selfish. To me being selfish is when you prioritise yourself at the expense of others in an unfair way. Like taking the biggest piece of cake, or expecting others to always drive on a night out so you can drink without reciprocating.
But I agree some questions are so obviously not selfish that you wonder what is going on that they have the need to justify their feelings.

Sounds like it's about time! It will be hard to be more assertive and "selfish", but when you become confident with being "selfish", you won't go back to the old ways, I'm sure. Good luck!

Exactly!

I couldn't have said it better myself...

Exactly, and this was my exact point: that it's okay to set boundaries, and to put yourself before others. Equally, we should not be so afraid of being told that we are "selfish". It's just a word, and as so many have mentioned in this thread: it's often used incorrectly, or in the wrong contexts.