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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Benefits legislation

78 replies

Mumeries · 09/11/2023 10:31

I claim disability benefits and universal credit because I can’t work due to a brain condition. In all, I get £1,000 a month in benefits.
I am shocked that there’s a new legislation about arrests if they suspect fraud, seizing laptops and phones and checking transactions of all claims regularly.
Is there a chance that arrests will happen left right and centre just because they don’t agree with that the person has spent money on?
I don’t know what I can do if anything, but I don’t want to claim benefits anymore, if there’s a risk that I will be interrogated. I don’t want to be monitored and scrutinised for what I spend my money on
as if I’m a child.
I want to ask if the news has been exaggerated for the sake of a news story.

OP posts:
Str0ngH3art · 09/11/2023 12:44

What about teens/ young adults living at home?

PerkingFaintly · 09/11/2023 12:51

There is no "finally", @Bigredjumper

I have been through stoppages, challenges and tribunals at least three times, I think four. Each time I've won eventually, sometimes after 15 months, but by then it's time for the next review, or they've changed the name of the benefit and everyone has to be ported or reassessed, and it goes round again.

In my experience, every single contact with the DWP, even a change of address, constitutes an opportunity for them to tell lies about me; claim not to have received paperwork sent to them Signed For, twice; and generally do everything they possibly can to stop my claim.

And these are the people you would trust with permanent access to disabled people's bank accounts?

The only thing the DWP do reliably is lie.

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 09/11/2023 12:52

GasPanic · 09/11/2023 12:32

A lot of whatabouterry about this.

Just because murder is a worse crime doesn't mean you shouldn't prosecute burglary also.

Benefits are paid for by the taxpayer. By everyone. The government has a responsibility to use taxpayer money appropriately and get value for money IMO. If you believe that is valid for covid PPE, you should believe that is valid for benefits too.

So yes, the best measures possible should be taken in order to ensure benefits are paid to those who need them and not those who don't. In the same way the best measures possible should be taken to ensure people pay appropriate amounts of tax which is necessary to fund those benefits. It shouldn't be a one sided thing.

Whataboutery?

This is about routine surveillance of people.

Are you saying Michelle More and her husband need to have their bank account data automatically available to DWP?

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 09/11/2023 12:54

PerkingFaintly · 09/11/2023 12:51

There is no "finally", @Bigredjumper

I have been through stoppages, challenges and tribunals at least three times, I think four. Each time I've won eventually, sometimes after 15 months, but by then it's time for the next review, or they've changed the name of the benefit and everyone has to be ported or reassessed, and it goes round again.

In my experience, every single contact with the DWP, even a change of address, constitutes an opportunity for them to tell lies about me; claim not to have received paperwork sent to them Signed For, twice; and generally do everything they possibly can to stop my claim.

And these are the people you would trust with permanent access to disabled people's bank accounts?

The only thing the DWP do reliably is lie.

I feel so sorry for you in this. Only people who've never experienced the institutionised arrogance of some government departments could advocate given them such free reign to wreck more lives.

SerendipityJane · 09/11/2023 13:04

From what I understand, DWP intends to use AI to scan bank transaction data and algorithms to analyse it for fraud/error.

In that case we are all fucked. Well and truly.

Cojer · 09/11/2023 13:10

It will be to look at income from undeclared sources, pensions, savings etc and to see if money is coming or going abroad. They aren't going to be interested in how many takeaways you buy.

There are teams who work on claims that are being paid to people who don't even live in this country. The amount of fraud actually detected is the tip of the iceberg.

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 09/11/2023 13:12

Cojer · 09/11/2023 13:10

It will be to look at income from undeclared sources, pensions, savings etc and to see if money is coming or going abroad. They aren't going to be interested in how many takeaways you buy.

There are teams who work on claims that are being paid to people who don't even live in this country. The amount of fraud actually detected is the tip of the iceberg.

If you already know this, then why would DWP need any more powers?
Surely you can just give them your extensive evidence and they can act?

randomuser2019 · 09/11/2023 13:16

This reply has been withdrawn

Removed at poster's request due to privacy concerns.

PerkingFaintly · 09/11/2023 13:23

Means tested benefit processing staff do not need to suspect criminal activity in order to request bank statements. They may request them at any point to review entitlement.

Do you mean directly from the bank? Without the subject's knowledge?

I understand they can ask the subject to bring in bank statements at any time, but then the subject knows that this is happening, and is also there to say, "This payment is from child maintenance, here's the paperwork; that payment is reimbursement of a loan, here's the evidence."

One of my other favourites is the time I got accused of working because there were payments into my account - which were actually housing benefit back in the day, and a flatmate in my shared house (sharing because not exactly rich), had reimbursed me their share of utility bills by bank transfer. As you can imagine, the amounts weren't exactly large, but I still had to give details for each.

Give the DWP unlimited access to that sort of stuff, together with Computer Says No, and they'll have field day.

randomuser2019 · 09/11/2023 13:25

This reply has been withdrawn

Removed at poster's request due to privacy concerns.

randomuser2019 · 09/11/2023 13:26

This reply has been withdrawn

Removed at poster's request due to privacy concerns.

Alltheyearround · 09/11/2023 13:28

underneaththeash · 09/11/2023 10:44

It's to crack down on people who have lots of income coming in and who are getting benefits.
It's a method of detecting crime. Currently they can't do it and people are getting away with it.

That's not strictly true.

We were spot checked by DWP when claiming tax credits, they looked into all aspects of our finances before saying that there was no problem. They can and do check randomly.

However, this looks like a more systematic way of assessing if people may be getting other income e.g. for income related benefits. Mind you, any drug dealer or crim is not going to be paying their ill gotten gains into the Halifax every month are they?

Mind you, some seem to think they are untouchable. As below (though I don't have any idea if he was claiming anything, so would presumably be off radar to DWP?)

Drug dealer in Rotherham, 100's of thousands, They proved through his accounts that unearned income flowing in and out - at the end of the 3rd episode looking at what the results of the operation were , it said that HMRC decided not to pursue! Why???

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0d5wqv8/the-detectives

The Detectives

Following Greater Manchester Police detectives as they try to unravel complex cases.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0d5wqv8/the-detectives

Ylvamoon · 09/11/2023 13:37

Surely financial fraud on benefits is a simple spreadsheet exercise.

X money coming in = X money going out.

I don't think anyone who is a genuine claimant has anything to fear.

My issues are with the type of power a government will have by being able to access bank accounts...

Getoverit1965 · 09/11/2023 13:42

This reply has been deleted

Removed at poster's request due to privacy concerns.

Couldn't agree more. It's mass policing of the less well off in our society. The moderate to well off and their tax avoidance is a far bigger issue but noone is interested in going after them. Track all their financial transactions and see how they like it.

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 09/11/2023 13:58

There is a worrying number of "well if you haven't done anything wrong" dimwits in this thread.

LNY1986 · 09/11/2023 14:06

DWP will be monitoring ALL bank accounts before long.
Anyone who claims any benefit, whether income related or not, will be subject to this intense scrutiny.

They already know exactly where and when, and more importantly, what was purchased.
They can already tell if you went thrugh a self service till, a main till, or if you went through a drive thru.
With this new legislation coming into play this year, your own bank account has now turned spy for them.

Every transaction has a unique code. If you spend £40 in Sainsburys, they can recover the receipt for that exact purchase years later if needs be.
They will know if you have purchased some immodiums, clean underwear and barrier creams. They will also know if you picked up some alcohol and chocolates.

If you claim PIP for severe anxiety, telling the DWP you hardly leave the house, then be prepared for your payments to be automatically stopped once the AI detects payments to restaurants, cafes, shops on a regular basis. Basically anything that flags up as not consistent with your reported condition.

If you claim for physical health problems, for example you tell them you cannot prepare a simple meal on most days, then be aware the AI will be able to tell how often you are buying ready meals/fast food/takeaway deliveries.
If you pop to Morrisons and buy a jar of sauce, some vegetables and a bag of rice, this will flag. If you have a Hello Fresh subscription, beware. Do this too often and you will be pulled in for further questioning.

Claiming you cannot use public transport? Don't use your card or Apple Pay on a bus then. Or the underground.

Claiming on the basis you need help managing your own finances?
Unless you are constantly dipping into the overdraft, direct debits being bounced etc, this will potentially flag you up.

Disability related costs can also be checked, they know exactly what you bought in the Co Op and in Boots. If this is extra washing powders and new underwear then fine. If not, be prepared for further scrutiny.

You cannot just say to them, oh yes that £20 in Tesco was for x/y/z.
They already know, and if they want to get a transaction receipt, the retailer is legally obliged to provide it.

AI has no limits. Pictures can be built up very quickly and WILL be used against everybody in the future. And not for our benefit either.

There are so many other examples. I remember reading about someone on a Facebook advice page not that long ago, apparently she claimed DLA for her child, she was stitched up by a jealous relative. The DWP managed to get her bank statements without her knowing!! and asked why she was paying for disney+ and Roblox if the child struggles to concentrate for more than a few minutes at any one time! Were they for the child, can the child actually watch a disney movie then? Can they sit and play on Roblox without being distracted? Nothing more came of it, but the very fact that they saw fit to obtain bank statements and scrutinise the transactions to try and somehow disprove the claim is terrifying.
Be prepared to see a lot more of this in the future.

I predict major changes are coming in the welfare system. I think you will have to justify every penny and provide expenses BEFORE getting paid a disability allowance, a bit like the current UC childcare system. I think the set amount for different levels of care will be scrapped.

Cash is and always will be king. But unfortunately we as a society have willingly adopted all this modern technology with no questions asked.
Everything the government brings in is for THEIR benefit, not of the people.

Anyone who claims benefits should be very worried with these proposed changes that will certainly be implemented in the very near future. Life is about to get much, much harder for the innocent disabled and all genuine claimants.
I think they will save a lot of money as genuine disabled people will just be too terrified to claim, or even pop to a restaurant on a good day if they feel up to it.

benefitsterrified · 09/11/2023 14:08

This is terrifying.

NamechangeForthisquestion1 · 09/11/2023 15:00

This is reminiscent of the Chinese social credit system. Hope it doesn't come to pass, especially with a new government but we will see. Sad times.

randomuser2019 · 09/11/2023 16:08

This reply has been withdrawn

Removed at poster's request due to privacy concerns.

PerkingFaintly · 09/11/2023 16:15

asked why she was paying for disney+ and Roblox if the child struggles to concentrate for more than a few minutes at any one time! Were they for the child, can the child actually watch a disney movie then? Can they sit and play on Roblox without being distracted?

Ah yes, the well-known phenomenon of "the detective doctor" (though these days you'd be lucky to see an actual doctor at a DWP assessment by ATOS or Capita). Instead of asking the real question, they ask something to fit a scenario in their heads. Unfortunately they're not being clever, as they fondly imagine; they're being extra dim.

Just like the little Miss Marples on MN who say, "but my village shop closes for half-days on Wednesday, so my question about you buying X on Wednesday afternoon in central Manchester was a Gotcha and I've proved you must be lying." <headdesk>

Happened to me. I couldn't understand why assessors over the years repeatedly asked what sort of TV I watched. It turns out they had been instructed to assume that if someone watched a soap that only meant concentrating for 30 mins, whereas if the person watched films that was proof they could concentrate for 90 mins.

Whereas I mostly watched films because I could only concentrate for less than 10 mins. In those days, the only way to pause every 10 mins was to watch on DVD or video. And my DVD collection mostly consisted of films.

<shrug>

Somehow I don't see the DWP "decision-makers" being less dim than ATOS or Capita healthcare professionals. And like I said, all interaction with the DWP constitutes attack-surface for them.

travelnorth · 09/11/2023 16:22

I don’t know what the media is saying. However, we are all going to be scrutinised by AI in the near future. It will go that way unfortunately. For now your disability claims are genuine so you should be fine. They won’t look at what did you spend the money on but more like if you received any other sort of income.

travelnorth · 09/11/2023 16:26

People will regret having a cash less society.

XenoBitch · 09/11/2023 16:58

I claim UC due to being unable to work. The news of this whole thing has terrified me too.

I can understand the need to monitor what is in someone's bank account to ensure they are within the thresholds set... but it is disgusting that they would want to information on individual transactions (particularly outgoings - what you spend your benefits on is your business).

MercanDede · 11/11/2023 21:23

”Just this picture pulled from another thread shows a far bigger issue, tax evasion, yet you never see the same level of outrage despite it being a FAR bigger financial problem.”

The cynic in me says this is because the MPs, PM, C-suite execs, Board members, and so on are all doing it and they are the ones who write our laws.

Zebedee55 · 12/11/2023 07:43

MercanDede · 09/11/2023 11:03

Disability benefits are a mix of means tested and non means tested.

DLA/AA/PIP are not means tested. Any UC/Pension Credit on top is.