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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Genocide

94 replies

saythatagaintome · 09/11/2023 02:17

AIBU to think/say that those saying what’s happening in Gaza is genocide?

The word is being grossly misused and, tbh… it’s offensive. Yes, IDF could be more careful, but they are not exterminating an entire race of people.

What happened to the Jews was genocide.
What happened to the Armenians was genocide.
Rohingya was genocide.
Darfur, Hutus, Rwanda = GENOCIDE.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
ColleenDonaghy · 09/11/2023 08:57

I'm not expert enough to declare if it's genocide or not - sure looks like it to me, but other people will be able to make that call from a more informed position.

Yes, IDF could be more careful, is some quare minimising bullshit though.

CrispsandCheeseSandwich · 09/11/2023 09:10

Genocide means attempting to wipe out a "race" and the numbers of that group will go down. Palestinians are not in any way a "race"

That's not the definition used internationally. Destroying a national group is included, it's not just a race.

From the UN:
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
a Killing members of the group;
b Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 09/11/2023 09:21

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 09/11/2023 07:58

I don't think anyone sane is claiming Hamas are justified or innocent. They are terrorists. You expect terrorists to behave like terrorists. But a state has to behave like a state, and respect international law and innocent life. What Israel is doing is as if, following an IRA bombing, they had blockaded the city of Derry so no-one could escape and then razed it to the ground. It is not acceptable. It is not proportionate. It is not justified. 160 children a day are dying in Gaza.

Which other states respect international law and innocent life?

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 09/11/2023 09:30

When Nazi Germany carried out genocide their goal was to eradicate all Jews, Roma, Poles, disabled people and other "undesirables" from German society.

When the Hutu's in Rwanda carried out genocide their goal was to kill every and all ethnic Tutsi's and remove them from Rwandan society

When the Khmer Rouge carried out genocide they aimed to kill pretty much everyone who they didn't like from Christians and Muslims to journalists and people who wore glasses.

When Ottomans carried out genocide they sought the utter destruction of the Armenian identity and to remove them from the Ottoman empire.

When Israel carries out genocide they allow almost 20% of their population to be the minority they're supposedly trying to kill and allow them to live as full citizens with equal rights under law within the country.

Spot the difference.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 09/11/2023 09:39

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 09/11/2023 09:21

Which other states respect international law and innocent life?

None perfectly or all the time. And when they fail to do so, they are called out. Which is what needs to happen now, as happened when Russia (with, in its own mind, perfect justification) invaded Ukraine. With the major difference that Ukrainian women and children at least had the option to escape. And Ukraine wasn't 140 square miles big with a population density of 6,507/km2. To bomb Gaza the way the IDF is currently doing is to knowingly kill thousands of civilians who have no way of escaping. Most of them children.

But to criticise Israel (in the way the UK/USA were criticised when they destroyed Iraq, in the way Russia is daily for the war in Ukraine) is somehow beyond the pale?

I'm not using the word 'genocide' because it speaks to intent. I don't actually care what Israel's intent is in kettling and then bombing 2 million people. The effect is mass murder on the most enormous scale and it is utterly unforgiveable.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 09/11/2023 09:42

Seriously, please, watch some of the videos of the kids. There are so many. Kids horribly wounded, dead, roaming the rubble plated in dust trying to find their parents, their siblings, trying to find anyone with the wherewithal to help them. See their twisted grimaces as the trauma and terror sinks deep into their psyche, never to be healed. See the blank, vacant staring that comes after as their little half-developed brains try and fail to process the calamity they are living through. Watch even 20 minutes of this and try to tell me 'well yes the IDF could be a bit more careful'. It's horrific.

CalistoNoSolo · 09/11/2023 09:44

RideLikeTheWindBullseye · 09/11/2023 04:32

We are watching genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people taking place in 2023, this is exactly what is happening.

Get yourself over to Tik Tok and wake up.

Ah yes Tik Tok. That well regarded news outlet that verifies all posts and sources...

CalistoNoSolo · 09/11/2023 09:48

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 09/11/2023 09:42

Seriously, please, watch some of the videos of the kids. There are so many. Kids horribly wounded, dead, roaming the rubble plated in dust trying to find their parents, their siblings, trying to find anyone with the wherewithal to help them. See their twisted grimaces as the trauma and terror sinks deep into their psyche, never to be healed. See the blank, vacant staring that comes after as their little half-developed brains try and fail to process the calamity they are living through. Watch even 20 minutes of this and try to tell me 'well yes the IDF could be a bit more careful'. It's horrific.

Are these videos verified footage of Palestinian children during this conflict?

FinallyFinalGirl · 09/11/2023 09:57

saythatagaintome · 09/11/2023 02:17

AIBU to think/say that those saying what’s happening in Gaza is genocide?

The word is being grossly misused and, tbh… it’s offensive. Yes, IDF could be more careful, but they are not exterminating an entire race of people.

What happened to the Jews was genocide.
What happened to the Armenians was genocide.
Rohingya was genocide.
Darfur, Hutus, Rwanda = GENOCIDE.

And the Irish by the British - twice.

Eggandcresssandwich · 09/11/2023 09:58

CalistoNoSolo · 09/11/2023 09:48

Are these videos verified footage of Palestinian children during this conflict?

FGS

MrsSkylerWhite · 09/11/2023 10:00

“Yes, IDF could be more careful”

Could be more careful? What the fuck is wrong with you?

DownNative · 09/11/2023 10:03

ALittleTeawithmilk · 09/11/2023 07:36

I’m voted yanbu but meant to vote yabu

It looks like genocide to me.

Genocide is NOT determined based on perceptions of something or how something looks.

If that was the case, there would be expert historian consensus the Irish Famine was genocide which it wasn't.

Intentionality is the most important feature of genocide. The intention is to destroy Hamas who follow the terrorist MO of operating amongst civilians in some extreme ways.

Genocide
RedCoffeeCup · 09/11/2023 10:04

IDF could be more careful WTF? I am truly appalled by this sentence

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 09/11/2023 10:05

CalistoNoSolo · 09/11/2023 09:48

Are these videos verified footage of Palestinian children during this conflict?

Are you trying to imply that children aren't dying and suffering in huge numbers during this conflict? That this is 'fake news'? Because not even the Israeli government is trying to pretend that.

CalistoNoSolo · 09/11/2023 10:05

Eggandcresssandwich · 09/11/2023 09:58

FGS

And? It was a genuine question. I follow the Ukraine-russia war relatively closely and I'm well aware of how Russia manipulates video footage to gain advantage. If you don't think hamas does exactly the same you're wilfully ignorant or stupid.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 09/11/2023 10:09

CalistoNoSolo · 09/11/2023 09:48

Are these videos verified footage of Palestinian children during this conflict?

Here you are if you can stomach it. Or is the BBC a leftist anti-semitic propaganda source dealing in faked footage?

The children suffering under Israel’s onslaught - BBC News

A senior United Nations official has said the human tragedy unfolding in Gaza is “unbearable”. Philippe Lazzarini told the UN Security Council that nearly ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu9Z5pC_FzI

CalistoNoSolo · 09/11/2023 10:09

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 09/11/2023 10:05

Are you trying to imply that children aren't dying and suffering in huge numbers during this conflict? That this is 'fake news'? Because not even the Israeli government is trying to pretend that.

No, but as above, I am well aware of how video footage can be manipulated. I think it's absolutely reasonable to ask for sources and verification, and I'm not going to have a search on tik tok or Facebook because most of it will be fake designed to manipulate the hard of thinking.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 09/11/2023 10:11

@CalistoNoSolo You really, REALLY do not have to look hard for 'verified' footage, even in this situation where so few journalists are able to get into Gaza, and those who are there have limited ability to get their fotage out. It's on every street in Gaza city. Children are being bombed in the refugee camps Israel directed people to evacuate to. This is not a case of 'manipulation'. Are you just not watching the news at all or what?

DownNative · 09/11/2023 10:11

FinallyFinalGirl · 09/11/2023 09:57

And the Irish by the British - twice.

And right on cue! Absolutely rubbish.

"Doyle Expounds Official Famine Line

It has taken a Government Minister, Ms Avril Doyle, to put Irish-Americans straight about the Great Famine"

  • Irish News headline and article on 14th December 1996

"The woefully inadequate response of the then British authorities and the misguided relief policies which they pursued are now well established in the professional literature of Famine studies. It was a rigidly doctrinaire and ideological administration, remote from the people whom it allegedly served and determined to pursue a programme of economic modernisation, even at the cost of thousands of people's lives.

However, it goes way beyond the boundaries of acceptable analysis to argue that there was a genocidal intent on the part of the British Government at the time and that the Irish Famine is therefore directly equivalent to the Holocaust. By using that argument, we are letting the British authorities off the hook. Their hands appear to have been clean but they certainly were not.

In my comments in America and elsewhere, I have made my position abundantly clear. The British response during the Famine was entirely inadequate, but the genocidal argument has no validity and this inaccuracy does a disservice both to the victims of the Holocaust or the Famine."

  • Minister Of State At The Department Of The Taoiseach, Mrs Avril Doyle speaking in the Irish Parliament on Thursday 19th December 1996

Avril Doyle was also the chair of the Republic of Ireland's National Famine Committee charged with organising the official commemoration of the 150th anniversary of the Great Famine.

"It is not good for continuing Anglo-Irish relations to term the famine as a deliberate act of genocide. What happened was more a case of appalling neglect and disinterest on the part of some of the reigning officialdom. Serious mistakes were made but there was no official genocide policy. It was really the manifestation of a laissez faire philosophy — let market forces reach their own level and, in the meantime, let the people die or try to survive, as inevitably they would. Certainly it was a philosophy that failed disastrously and for which we still pay."

  • David Andrews (TD representing the Constituency of Dún Laoghaire) speaking in the Irish Parliament on Thursday 19th December 1996.

"In the case of the Great Famine no reputable historian believes that the British state intended the destruction of the Irish people, and the Famine-Holocaust comparisons provide no support either. Yet one million died. Does intentionality matter?

It does matter, for at least three reasons. First, it directly determines the scale of the tragedy. It is easy to forget that had Germany not lost the war, many more Jews would have been killed, such was the strength of commitment to the Final Solution. By contrast, when the Irish economy recovered some strength at the end of the 1840s the crisis was largely, though not wholly over – to the evident relief, not only of people in Ireland but of British policy makers also.

But to narrow the focus simply to the role of the British government for a moment: for all the massive irresponsibility and buck-passing that characterised the five years of crisis, the state succeeded in organising public relief schemes that employed three-quarters of a million workers, and at one point was responsible for feeding three million people on a daily basis.

These are not the actions of a Government or a state bent on genocide."

  • Liam Kennedy, emeritus professor of economic history at Queen's University, Belfast, Northern Ireland and author of "The Great Irish Famine and the Holocaust" on the QUB website

"The belief that the authorities in London did little to prevent the Irish from starving underpins the recurrent claims of genocide from some quarters in Ireland and particularly Irish-America. There is a sense in which England "slept". However, two points need emphasising here.

First is that any worthwhile definition of genocide includes murderous intent, and it must be said that not even the most bigoted and racist commentators of the day sought the extermination of the Irish. Certainly, stereotypical images of feckless peasants and lazy landlords abounded. They underpinned an interpretation of the Famine as a divine solution to an otherwise intractable problem of overpopulation, and justified tough policies. If policy failure resulted in deaths, then (as in the Netherlands in the same years and in India and elsewhere later) they were largely the by-product of a dogmatic version of political economy, not the deliberate outcome of anti-Irish racism. In the late 1840s, Whitehall policy makers were no less dogmatic toward Irish famine victims.....Yet even the toughest of them hoped for better times for Ireland and, however perversely, considered the harshest measures prescribed as a form of communal medicine. A charge of doctrinaire neglect is easier to sustain than one of genocide.

Second, modern accusations of genocide underestimate, or overlook altogether, the enormous challenge facing relief agencies, both central and local, public and private, at the time."

  • Cormac Ó Gráda, Irish economic historian and professor emeritus of economics at University College Dublin as well as author of Black '47 and Beyond: The Great Irish Famine in History, Economy, and Memory

"One word, however, is not open to our usage.....This is the term "holocaust". When you see it, you know you are encountering famine-porn. It is inevitably part of a presentation that is historically unbalanced and, like other kinds of pornography, is distinguished by a covert (and sometimes overt) appeal to misanthropy and almost always an incitement to hatred."

  • Historian and author of twenty-four books on Ireland, Professor Donald H. Akenson speaking 150th Famine commemorations at the Ulster-American Folk Park in Omagh, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland in September 1995

Akenson is considered to be the "world's foremost authority on the Irish Diaspora." He lectures at Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada.

"In 1944 the Polish-Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin coined a new word, genocide, to describe what was happening. Four years later the UN adopted the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Since then the term has been applied to other situations, sometimes retrospectively, for example to Armenia in 1915–18 and our own Potato Famine. But how appropriate is this? The key word in the Convention is ‘intent’. I’ll leave readers to argue whether this has been established in the Armenian case (see Letters), but as I listened to our guide, Vitold, relate the grim details of the Nazis’ ‘Final Solution’, I couldn’t help but conclude that, notwithstanding British culpability for the millions of victims of the Famine in Ireland, genocide it was not."

  • Editor of History Ireland in an Editorial in Issue 5 September/October 2015, Volume 23

"Dr Williams, therefore, sees the Famine as “Britain’s Great Failure” – a failure of public policy. It was not genocide, but equally it was not simply the result of a natural disaster.

Moreover, he emphasises that it was the Irish poor – not the “Irish people” – who were “starved and driven out”. For the Irish upper and middle classes, Catholic as well as Protestant, life during the Famine went on pretty much as before. The framing of the Famine in nationalist terms by John Mitchel and others – to quote Williams, “as England against Ireland, the landlords against the people and, by implication at least, Protestants against Catholics” – is wholly misleading, though sadly it remains part of our popular memory and still provokes anti-British sentiment both in Ireland and among the descendants overseas of those “driven out”."

Review of Ireland’s Great Famine, Britain’s Great Failure by William H. A. Williams on the Irish Catholic website

www.irishcatholic.com/the-irish-famine-natural-disaster-or-genocide/

Raffyash1 · 09/11/2023 10:12

Look at Shaun King's instagram page.

Prepared to be horrified at the genocide that will unfold before your very eyes.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 09/11/2023 10:12

So why does Palestine matter but Yemen doesn't?

Would it have anything to do with the fact that Yemenis are being slaughtered by other Arabs, whereas Israelis are slaughtering Palestinians and there is an in-built anti-semitism in human society?

I don't think what the Israelis are doing is right, but goodness knows they had provocation from the events of October 7th. But in the end all it boils down to is toxic male violence - again. Men really need to sort themselves out, stop playing war games, and get on with their lives instead of blowing each other up and raping and murdering women.

RedCoffeeCup · 09/11/2023 10:13

@ALittleTeawithmilk you can change your vote

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 09/11/2023 10:15

More for @CalistoNoSolo

https://www.itv.com/watch/news/itv-news-witnesses-the-scale-of-children-suffering-in-gaza-first-hand/hwspb3q

Locallady2 · 09/11/2023 10:20

From what I can tell, hamas claim that thier aim is genocide and, although they carry out horrific acts of terrorism, they (thankfully) won't be able to achieve genocide.
The isreali government claim that thier aim is to destroy hamas, but they are in fact carrying out a genocide on Palestinian people.
Evil all round.

Wwwnothingdotcom · 09/11/2023 10:29

CalistoNoSolo · 09/11/2023 10:05

And? It was a genuine question. I follow the Ukraine-russia war relatively closely and I'm well aware of how Russia manipulates video footage to gain advantage. If you don't think hamas does exactly the same you're wilfully ignorant or stupid.

There have been influx of modified and fake footage for/against both sides in this conflict and you are absolute right about Russian invasion info manipuoation so your questions are valid about footage. Also large amount of fake news and general disinformation. It's quite a problem nowadays when many people consume questionable media, or just a single one which is even worse, without base knowledge of issue or interest in learning about it.