to think Coram Boy is not a suitable book for year 7s

[vegetaria]

My 11 year old had night mares last night and is afraid to go to sleep tonight.

For anyone who doesn't know it is about a man who buys unwanted children in the UK in the 1700s, and sells them into slavery if they are above 5, or kills them by burying them alive if they are younger, and it describes several scenes of babies being buried alive and other harrowing events

Its the class book at the moment

Going to keep reading this thread to see what qualifications the OP adds to her CV next

Please point to my hyperbole @DrBlackbird

I worked for the publishing house that released Michelle Magorian’s excellent Goodnight Mr Tom it was published as a secondary school level text. With a suggested reading age of 12+

In classrooms it isn’t impossible to quietly intervene with a child whose parents wish them to not be taught a certain text. In my setting this would generally involve them being withdrawn to another learning space for a period. However as this instance involves a whole class text and probably a whole scheme of work I would hope SLT would support the English teacher here and say that attendance was not optional.

I find your conflating the of use of an award winning children’s novel in an English lesson with discriminatory and downright dangerous PSHCE teaching to be disingenuous at best.

PSHCE is a problem in my opinion but that should be another thread. In this one the OP has, in summary, labelled a teacher as inexperienced, called on SLT to remove a prestigious book from its curriculum and then slated the book to everyone. It is her opinion not an accepted fact that the book is dreadful. Anyway, I’m off to mark some Macbeth GCSE assessments - now that’s gory but a joy to teach.

@Justonemorecoffeeplease I don’t believe that I used any of your posts as an example of hyperbole? Your response seems a bit unnecessarily defensive.

Whilst the publishing house set a suggested reading of 12+, Michelle Magorian said that she wrote it with age 14/15 yr in mind. It would not be unusual for a publishing house to take a more commercial view on suggested reading age.

The principle of my comparison holds in that educators/teachers do not necessarily understand the negative impact of a chosen approach, however well intentioned. That’s not being disingenuous.

Again, the OP did not explicitly state that she was calling for the book to be removed from the curriculum. That is your assumption. She did not label the teacher as inexperienced. The OP did judge the teacher as being naive and privileged, but the inexperienced comment was made by others to the OP. However, even if she did, being inexperienced is not criticism, it’s fact. Am a bit surprised about how emotions in this thread are such obstacles to comprehension.

Not emotional at all just responding to your statement that those challenging the OP were using hyperbole. However, I am inwardly sighing at how teachers who are acting in good faith teaching English with a well respected novel are being critiqued. I’m not being defensive just expressing my thoughts - and bringing my experience to the discussion.

It is a fact that teacher numbers are falling off a cliff and this type of complaint just adds to the daily stress. I am honestly concerned about who on earth will be left in the profession soon. A bit emotional there perhaps but that’s because I believe education is a vital cornerstone to any society. That education may well entail challenging concepts but if we can’t teach children to respond to challenge then we really are doomed.

As for your comment about my our lack of ‘comprehension’…🙄I would say that OP was very much using ‘inexperienced’ as a criticism.

the OP does not explicitly state that she is or was trying to get the book withdrawn for the entire class. Your interpretation of her comments might be that was her intent, but she does not say this.

However, I can see most people on here agree with me, which is very reassuring, so thankyou for those who have been supportive, it gave me impetus! and clearly many other parents, and the head is also concerned, so hopefully that book will not be coming back =
= ⬆️No idea if it was OP's intent. But she's certainly not concerned that children other than her child are impacted.

She does say that she is going to complain about the inappropriateness of the book for her child. Perhaps to question the book as appropriate content for 11 year olds full stop. I’d take that as part of a reasoned debate, wouldn’t you?

I've read the book, I got hold of it last week when my child first got upset. Its CRAP
⬆️Doesn't strike me as reasoned debate no.

Neither does the OP provide clear evidence that she is ‘slating the teacher via gossip and supposition’. The most we can take away from her posts is that she spoke to one other parent passing on the message. Again, that is your interpretation of events. Maybe she was ringing up all the parents slating the teacher personally, but maybe she wasn’t. Perhaps she was simply calling other parents to ask if their child was upset, did they have concerns.

I'd lay odds they have never had a baby. I'd lay odds that they are from a privileged background thinking they are being "edgy" by introducing traumatic themes, without any understanding at all that most of their pupils have more traumatic themes in their real lives then this teacher has read about, and need no "introduction"

= ⬆️supposition

The head didn't say the head of English was new and inexperienced, other students and parents have said so. I didn't speak directly to the head, just to someone else who was passing the message on, as it has already been decided

⬆️= " other students and parents" = gossip

There are ways of withdrawing your child from activities at school. And there are ways of trying to get the activity itself stopped.

Despite your forensic denial, I think it's really quite clear to see which way the OP has approached this.

Many of us have an opinion on our children's learning and what is suitable or not, but with parents like this I pity teachers tbh.
@DrBlackbird

Yes, I appreciate your perspective as well @Justonemorecoffeeplease in terms of teachers being criticised and seemingly not being able to do right for doing wrong. As a fellow educator, I completely support the view that education is a vital cornerstone. That does warrant some strong feelings. And also, I certainly wasn’t singling you out for a lack of comprehension. That was, for example, in relation to one PP getting 11 as an age and Year 11 mixed up.

My wider point is that there are also a lot of teachers (at every level) with a limited grasp of pedagogical knowledge and/or forced to employ fads eg ‘learning styles’ that can result in poor teaching. You sound like a thoughtful and informed teacher, but I’m sure you’ve experienced others who are less so.

Re the OP’s point, Coram Boy is a set text for Pearson Edexcel’s GSCE curriculum, not year 7. I am all for exposing children to challenging concepts, but also agree with the OP that this book is not an age appropriate for 11 year olds. It seems that on this matter, we have to agree to disagree.

Have you read it?

It might be on the GCSE for Edexcel but it’s listed on Scholastic for 12+. Christmas Carol, Romeo and Juliet, Sherlock Holmes are also on the GCSE syllabus but are still taught in younger years by many, many schools.

As I’ve said previously it’s intended as a 12+ book and is suitable for use in a Year 7 class whether you or the OP think so or not. Opinion does not outweigh educational merit. I was literally in the meetings when we discussed who should read this book when it was published. The Guardian review suggested readers over 9 years old…

I really hope that the HOD in this case can just get on with actually teaching.

I was literally in the meetings when we discussed who should read this book when it was published

Really interesting to hear from you then. Do you recall what the criteria or evidence was used to base the reading age decision?

A parent started by asking if it is unreasonable to think Coram Boy is unsuitable for year 7s. I'm grateful to this parent for raising this debate as I have a primary school child who loves reading but this has made me think of what I could do if my child read a book that left them shocked, upset and resulted in nightmares. Regardless of whether people think the answer to this question is yes or no, it is not unreasonable to raise this question as (in this situation) the child did not have a choice over whether to read the book (ok there's a lot of things we don't have choices over) but in situations where children do not have a choice, parents are usually asked for consent. I am not suggesting that schools should ask consent for focusing on certain books but it is important to address parents' concerns with the focus on the child (not the parent) if the parent thinks that a school activity (in which the child has little choice but to participate) left or will leave their child feeling distressed. It's easy to say the majority don't have a problem with the activity but every child is different and here lies the problem with saying that all children of a certain age will be ok with something or can consent to something. There's evidence to show that all children of a certain age don't necessarily understand or interpret things in the same way. Sadly, certain legislation around consent does not reflect this.

The contents of the book funnily enough! 🤣The vocabulary and subject matter.

in situations where children do not have a choice, parents are usually asked for consent

I don't think this applies in a school situation. The parents can't possibly be asked to consent to each and every little aspect of the school day. Their consent is implicit in that they send their child to the school to be educated, and in doing this, they delegate a lot of the day-to-day decision-making to the school staff, who use their professional judgement to determine what's appropriate and what's not.

Of course, the parents have the right to complain if they think that the school is not exercising its duties diligently enough. If complaints are received, then they will be investigated and it is for the school to determine whether or not they are upheld. If a complaint is upheld, then hopefully the matter will be addressed to the parent's satisfaction. If it isn't, then the parent has the right to accept the school's decision, move the child to another school or home educate.

And of course, if a child has mental health problems or additional needs etc, then the parent has every right to request reasonable adjustments and the school has a legal duty to put reasonable adjustments in place. That still doesn't mean that the parents have to consent to anything and everything. If they don't consent to the school's approach, then they have the right to remove the kids and educate them elsewhere.

I'm not saying that schools shouldn't be mindful of the needs of kids with fragile mental health or that they shouldn't make efforts to prevent those kids from getting upset. Of course they should. However, I don't think parental consent is particularly relevant in cases like this. Parents are free to withdraw their consent at any time by removing their kids from the school, but they don't get to keep their kids at the school while dictating every tiny detail.

Not quite what I mean 🤔

At a publishing house, presumably there must be some set objective criteria by which you evaluate whether the subject matter is appropriate for which age?

Something like the BBFC classification guidelines. The Guardian review is by Livloves2read, not sure what makes her qualified to suggest a reading age of 9+ without further information.

Surely the decision to classify a reading age is not based only on a matter of opinion of those who get to sit around the table 😉

*Not quite what I mean 🤔

At a publishing house, presumably there must be some set objective criteria by which you evaluate whether the subject matter is appropriate for which age?

Something like the BBFC classification guidelines. The Guardian review is by Livloves2read, not sure what makes her qualified to suggest a reading age of 9+ without further information.

Surely the decision to classify a reading age is not based only on a matter of opinion of those who get to sit around the table 😉*

@DrBlackbird

Presumably and Surely doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

We're going right back to questioning the knowledge and experience of a publishing house to set age ranges now.

What sort of scientific criteria are you looking for? What studies would you consider appropriate?

Well, bear in mind this was over twenty years ago so things may well have changed. Experienced professional commissioning editors with knowledge of children’s development and maturity would discuss and explore the text and we’d reach a decision. Unlike the BBFC there wasn’t a prescriptive list of for example how many swear words you could get away with. That I would suggest falls very much into Mary Whitehouse territory if you can remember her.

Anyway if you want a more shocking novel to really get flustered over I direct you to Junk by Melvin Burgess which is also read by young readers but probably Y9 up.

To be honest, if you’re not going to be persuaded by the fact it won the Whitbread Children’s Book award as a testament of its merit, I’m not sure I can offer anything further - other than my judgement that it’s a wonderful book which deserves its accolades and I’m now going to consider if I should teach it at KS3 as we are looking for a change.

Reflecting on this today has made me realise how much more we label things today and attach some moral value to literature, art etc. We seem so much more prescriptive over what should be ‘allowed’ in school. Not sure I welcome that.

Missed your next post. But to be clear, I’m not flustered by the book and am not disputing its award winning nature. What I genuinely don’t understand is why you take such offence at anonymous posters raising concerns about it being age appropriate for 11 yr olds. I also find your passive aggressive comment that you’re now considering introducing the book for your KS3 as retribution for a MN discussion thread deeply disturbing.

You've posted on a forum that asks "am I being unreasonable?"

Then you've disparaged the 53% of people (currently) who said "yes, you are being unreasonable."

So I assume you chose the forum by accident, as you weren't interested in discussing whether you were unreasonable.

That was my first question?!

Would that not be a worry DC finding sexual assault funny?

Not ‘retribution’ at all @DrBlackbird honestly I’m not the villainous type. It’s just reminded me thinking about it today what a lovely text it is and I’ve done some exploring regarding schemes of work and we are genuinely looking to freshen up our texts. I certainly don’t have the time or inclination to write a whole teaching plan just to get back at Mums netters.

I shall now withdraw and leave it up to those who’ve read the book to judge for themselves.

What I genuinely don’t understand is why you take such offence at anonymous posters raising concerns about it being age appropriate for 11 yr olds.

Bit disingenuous. Theres 'raising concerns' and there's attributing a mental health crisis to 'books like this' and generally slagging off teachers.

@Justonemorecoffeeplease agree about Junk - upsetting but brilliant.

This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread but I'd wholeheartedly recommend The Coram Museum in Bloomsbury to get the true picture of the Coram children. It's fascinating, sad and uplifting at the same time.

Sadly, I don’t think the OP had any interest in actually finding anything out or helping her DC do so. She just wanted to froth about how disgusting it is.

These are the criteria for how films are classified, I think the question is ‘are there similar, published, guidelines for books?’.

I think it’s a valid point that publishers will have an incentive to give books a wider age rating because they’ll make more profit.

Its a well written, fictional book which deals sensitively with historical themes.

Descriptions are not gory.

A 12 year old isn't a little child. They should have the emotional intelligence to start exploring more serious themes.

Yabvu.