AIBU to think this dismissal is dodgy?

[noosmummy12]

My husband started a new job with our local constabulary in May (probation for 6 months). He has PTSD which began when he worked as a PC with the same constabulary 8 years ago (no support offered back then). He declared the PTSD on interview and it was also looked at during his medical once getting the job and it was signed off. An incident happened while at work which triggered the PYSD and was advised by his line manager to have some time off and that they assumed it would be 6 weeks. He has kept in touch with his line manager and had meetings with her a few weeks ago about how they’re supporting him and how they will get him back to work slowly once he’s back. They also arranged for a medical assessment for the day after his return to make sure he was fit to return etc. He received a text from said line manager last week to say they’d like another meeting with him this Tuesday (not specifying what the meeting was about, he assumed it was to make a plan to return to work as he was going back the week after- he has been off sick 4 weeks getting used to his new medication and has been having counselling too). He turned up to this meeting to find out it was to dismiss him for sickness leave. He had no idea this was what the meeting was for, so had
no representation with him. They have aired that they don’t believe him to be getting better (despite this to be one of the questions they wanted the answer to from the doctors assessment). I’m struggling to see if this is completely legal. Yes, he was on probation, but by having a disability and this being the reason for his time off after being told to take some time off is there anything we can do?

Then honestly that makes it even worse for him, if he’s unable to even do that without being triggered.

Is he in a union? He really really should be, although it's probably a bit late now. The police may well be acting correctly- a member of police staff who is continually re-traumatised by policing and needs substantial time off can reasonably be considered to be unable to do the job.

I do wonder why he persisted in going back to the job, though. Is he hoping for a payout this time round?

I would recommend an appointment with an employment solicitor asap for advice regarding disability and probation period. Also ring ACAS for any advice they can offer.

I never said he was currently a police officer, nor was this the same job

He’s not doing the same job

He’s not a police officer

He isn’t a police officer, he has a civvy job

For clarity, he’s now in a civvy role and has never had an issue with his PTSD before. He was due to return on 6/11, and had been told to have time off to get used to his new medication. There was already a back to work plan in place and the last meeting he had was the discuss this and to offer him support. He wasn’t informed before the last meeting what this was about and actually thought it was about the back to work plan. He has been told to either resign or they’ll call him tomorrow to dismiss him. There has been no issue with his performance and his supervisor actually told him his job was safe and that the higher management had said that they couldn’t “get rid of him” because of poor performance, but that they’d had too many currently off sick too

It may be worth your dh speaking to his union about it, see what their thoughts are. I think the employer will have a good argument for his employment being terminated due to capability. He was only back at work with them for a few months and his ptsd was triggered. The fact it has resurfaced so quickly is worrying - he may be a risk to both himself and others, which is something his employer will be concerned about. It doesn’t sound like working for this constabulary is any good for his health and well being.

If the job has triggered his PTSD so quickly and to the point where he’s needed a month off then terminating his employment is probably the right thing to do for his health.

I understand it must be difficult but you must have concerns about his health should he return.

In many jurisdictions, employees with disabilities are protected from discrimination under employment laws. However, probationary periods can sometimes complicate matters, as employers may have more flexibility in terminating employment during this period. That being said, employers are generally still expected to follow fair and lawful procedures.

Having a disability doesn't prevent you from being sacked for excessive sickness I'm afraid.

I know because I have a hidden disability and have been in trouble with a couple of employers in the last decade. It's impossible to answer but if hes an ex copper with PTSD from the Job, it sounds like he needs to get far away from his triggers if he's not at a point of managing his MH.

Is he in a staff union?

Has he tried EMDR? My mate had it for her PTSD and the difference for her is astounding.

They are still covered under employment law and regulations. 🙄

Long periods of sickness in the probationary period will result in dismissal, it’s how employers weed out the employees who they can’t rely on. It’s harsh but maybe he needs time away from the workplace to recover and look for a more suitable job

What makes you think PTSD can't be a disability? This is definition under the Equality Act:

"you have a physical or mental impairment that has a 'substantial' and 'long-term' negative effect on your ability to do normal daily activities."

So in some cases, PTSD could definitely be described as a disability.

It doesn't sound to me as if the employer has followed proper procedures there - have you seen a copy of their capability process? If his PTSD meets the definition of a disability, they will need to have shown that they have done everything they could in the way of reasonable adjustments before deciding their only option is dismissal.

Probation periods are irrelevant to employment law. They don't make it any easier to get rid of an employee (it's pretty easy within the first 2 years for most). And probationary periods don't mean that you don't have to make reasonable adjustments, or remove discrimination protections.

So it sounds like you may have a couple of possible avenues to challenge the dismissal - failure to follow fair process, and/or discrimination/failure to provide reasonable adjustments.

I'd start by asking the employer for their capability/dismissal policy/process and/or employee handbook, and then talk to ACAS. You could also contact your local Citizens Advice and ask if they have an employment specialist that could help you with a possible tribunal claim. I wouldn't bother with their generalist advice unless you don't understand the content on the Citizens Advice website. I have assumed he doesn't have a trade union? If he does, he should contact them straight away of course and they should be able to support through the process.

Hi,

So sorry you're going through this.

Firstly, Typical of the job to set up a "welfare meeting" so your husband didn't have a rep there. It's a common tactic. I personally wouldn't go into any meeting with that job, or any supervisor, without recording it covertly. The higher the rank, the more they protect themselves.

I am assuming he's no longer a cop as cops don't have 6 month probation, they have 2 year probations and are dismissed via reg 13 if dismissed in probation.

So in order to offer more advice, I need more details. Was he ill health retired as a PC, or did be resign (or even retire)? Did the job cause the PTSD? I assume he's gone into a civilian role -is that as an investigator and if so what department? Loads of civvie roles now pretty much do the same role as a cop except for the arrest. HOWEVER there are loads of civilian, none frontline, none confrontational roles too, as I see some replies have been quite harsh regarding him going back.

If he's done his full 30 years it is quite common to feel institutionalised and have no idea what to do when leaving.

I have a lot of experience regarding discrimination in this very sector and the employment tribunal process.

One thing I will say is, they will lie, and they will do anything possible to rid themselves of any responsibility. Even if they're the root cause. That is a hard pill to swallow when you read witness statements that are outright lies written by the very people who are meant to uphold honesty and integrity. They won't ever go through early conciliation. They fight to the bitter end, and only try to settle when they've dragged you through all the case management orders.

Now materially, your husband hasn't really lost anything as presumably his pension is all intact? Yes I know he has lost a job, but they will argue he can find another. He hasnt lost his career as he was new in the role.
It may not be worth the fight.

From a compassionate perspective PTSD is very complex And i suspect he didnt expect to feel triggered. He may well benefit from seeing this as a blessing in disguise. You cannot heal in the environment that made you sick.

I am all for fighting for what is right, but in this case, it could be an 18 month battle if it is upheld, for a moral victory. Employment tribunals are very emotionally taxing too. I am sorry I sound cynical, but I am thinking of the payback for the incredible effort it takes to fight a Police organisation. They have deep pockets and a dedicated legal team. I have also found the ET not to feel very fair of late. They're back dated with cases since COVID.

Eta he won't be using the federation will he. I've no knowledge of Unison, or whichever union the civvies use.

@penjil
No they really aren’t. Police officers have a unique employment status.

Not that it applies here as OP has since said that her husband is in a civilian role, but the previous poster was correct in what they said.

I also think it very much depends on what the “incident” that triggered the time off was.

I would perfectly understand if you didn’t want to share such details here OP, as others say speak to his union or ACAS.

@StarlightLime

'Hang on, some really bad advice here, you can absolutely dismiss someone with a disability if that disability means they are simply unable to perform the role. It’s not discrimination. Its capability termination.''

But you can't do it without first looking at what reasonable adjustments are needed and having clear evidence that the person cannot do the role in spite of these adjustments. They should have explored if he could be moved to a desk/admin/reception job.

Instead they chose to dismiss him while he was still on sick leave without even giving them a chance to come back and see if reasonable adjustments could work although his return to work was being planned.

The fact that he is still on probation is irrelevant because you can claim unfair dismissal from day one if you are dismissed unfairly because of a disability/long term health condition.

He declared the mental health issues from the start so the employers were fully aware of what they were taking on.

OP, I would speak to ACAS and a lawyer and make a case for unfair dismissal.

Ultimately he might have to move to a new career but the way the employer behaved is shabby and you need to get urgent legal advice.

OP, I do think it’s worth a chat with an employment lawyer.

He could have a legal disability (but it isn’t guaranteed - he has a condition that potentially qualifies but it has meet the legal test of having a substantial adverse impact on day to day activities such as going out, driving, shopping, etc)

If he is potentially disabled (which he could well be) then to dismiss without any OH referral or medical evidence, and without following a proper procedure for capability (or even warning him the meeting could result in dismissal, or giving him the right to be accompanied!) would be a very risky decision indeed.

Whether he is actually successful in a claim will depend on a huge number of factors including whether his PTSD would stop him from performing his role.

For example I once came across an individual who wanted to sue their employer for discrimination based on PTSD… but their case was that they had a phobia of fire engines, and they thought a reasonable adjustment would be for their employer to ensure they never had any contact with them. They worked in a fire station…..

N

Sorry but they are not They are crown servants and not covered by all employment laws. Like the military

I think there is something that’s not being said op, police dismissals are done through the book. It’s actually very complex with lots of hoops for them to proceed to dismiss, so something has been going on for a good few weeks.

are you sure he was off due to ill health? That this isn’t performance?. You seem confused, first you said he was triggered and his supervisor suggested he take time off. Now you’re saying he was told due to medication. That he’s never had an issue with ptsd before but was so triggered in a civvy role he has taken a month off and has to have a phased slow return to work.

in my experience resign or we will fire you is due to gross misconduct,

He was told to take time off by his supervisor and while he was off he began new medication for the anxiety from having PTSD. His line manager has said he is brilliant at his job and has taken to it better than anyone else she’s seen (yes we have that in writing) and nothing was mentioned about bad performance in the last meeting he attended, just that he didn’t think he would ever get better (without taking to the medical assessors who hadn’t yet assessed him). He is not a police officer, he is civvy staff, and his therapist has told him she sees multiple people who have been treated similarly by the same constabulary. I am aware they are supposed to “follow procedures” but they obviously aren’t, hence my post.

There has been no issue with his performance and his supervisor actually told him his job was safe and that the higher management had said that they couldn’t “get rid of him” because of poor performance, but that they’d had too many currently off sick too
That sounds very peculiar? Why even mention poor performance if it was never an issue?