“women and children” in war

[Diolchynfawr]

Just catching up with Any Questions on R4. Much talk of ‘women and children’ being bombed in Gaza, and who were slaughtered on October 7th.

Laying aside one for one moment (if such a thing is possible) the appalling horror and tragedy of the current situation, I can’t quite pinpoint how I feel about this little snippet of rhetoric.

My first response is to feel as though I’ve been transported back to an era when women, like children, where kept and cared for by men. I hear echoes of the Titanic and cries of ‘save the women and children’. Sort of feels regressive in this day and age, why not speak of civilians, or of ‘children, the elderly and infirm’, if wanting to highlight the plight of the vulnerable?

In the next moment I’m reflecting on how it must feel to be a young man these days, to hear outcry at the death of women and children, but little said about fathers and brothers. I wonder if it is any coincidence that it is young men who are shooting and stabbing each other in our inner cities, and what the value our society places on their lives.

Not really an AIBU, but what do you think? Should ‘women and children’ still be a phrase we use today and why/why not?

WWII was the reason why the UN was created and why the international laws defining war crimes were written. The objective was to not repeat indiscriminate targeting and murdering of civilians.

On average a man would be able to "defeat" a woman if similarly "tooled up"

Assuming the same training, an average man and woman if similarly tooled up it would be more about luck as to who wins. While the man has the advantage of strength, running stride and ability to carry more ammunition, the woman would have the advantage of being a sneakier and smaller target, usually more likely to be a sharpshooter, and would also be able to survive on less water and less food than a man- increasing stealth and endurance in the field. Women can also more readily disguise themselves as civilians and infiltrate or escape situations than a man can. In addition, certain enemy soldiers still hesitate for a fraction when faced with a woman, that split second gives a woman the edge to get the first shot off.

When it comes to drone, fighter jet & helicopter pilots and tank drivers, no difference between a man or a woman at the controls.

I like the term PP used - non-combatants. That encapsulates the innocent, whatever their age or gender. Or just call them innocent people.

Yep, that’s what all civilians, medics, press, UN, and aid workers are. It’s how we should be counting death toll. Right now the news is adding the deaths of Israeli soldiers to their death toll, but the Palestinian death tool is 100% non-combatants. It’s not apples to apples.

I do think there is a discussion to be had, yes.

I would however also consider that Palestine is a society where the opportunities available to women and the rules they must abide by are NOT the same as they are for men.
This is not the same situation as in 21rst century Britain (or any other Western country).

there is also the issue that war tends to affect women (and girls) differently.

The likelihood of rape and sexual violence against women (and girls!) is much higher during active conflict and the aftermath (such as refugee camps, during displacement etc).

And that is without touching the very real issue of rape and forced pregancy being used systematically in various armed conflicts. Something that has NOT been paid enough attention to in the past and is crucial in the peace processs and for transitional justice.

There is also the issue that war related childhood trauma has the potential to severely impact a child´s development with potentially severe have longterm consequences.

I personally am uncomfortable if we simply say "women and children" but do not talk about how armed conflict and war specifically impacts them.
We should talk much more openly and frequently about these specific issues!

Especially because saying "women and children" invokes the old-timey attitude the OP mentioned. Instead of highlighting issues and problems that are (still) relevant today.

You are wrong according to the United Nations.and other reputable sources. Google it.

And that is a wholly ignorant comment that shows a complete lack of understanding of the impact of rape.

I used to worry about the sexism in the term, but over time I realized I was naive.

When the U.S. pulled out of Afghanistan, we saw huge crowds of men getting those last flights. Where were the women and children?

Hamas did not just murder, it used rape as an attack method. That method targets one group.

i started to list other examples, but they were all from the Middle East because that is where we have seen conflict recently. I don’t think it would be fair to blame one region .

i am under no illusion that all the wonderful rights and comforts i have as a woman in a western country are solid. The truth is that they exist because the men collectively find it advantageous for me to have rights and to have a voice.

when an area is ruled by words, women and children are equals. When an area is ruled by force, we are always going to be at a disadvantage and suffer.

Rape requires a special kind of evil beyond murder. The man has to be sexually aroused while harming another person. There is something fundamentally broken inside a man who can commit a violent rape. As both an individual crime and a crime of war, the punishment should reflect that.

Rape requires a special kind of evil beyond murder
And where do you put torture? It's a special kind of evil that gets a kick from witnessing horrible suffering and pain.

Rape is also uses as a way to intentionally make a woman pregnant. Thus giving birth to and bringing up the child of your enemy.

And actually I imagine repeated gang rape which again is a common weapon is probably not far off being worse than death.

I don't really understand the argument that rape is worse than other forms of torture.
And I don't get the argument that since men are mostly the ones that start wars that their lives are somehow worth less.
I mean as the mother of 2 young boys who was brought up by a single father after my mother walked out on us when I was aged 7 and my sister was aged 3, maybe I have a slightly different view of males than a lot of other posters, but to me, men's lives matter just as much as women's.
I do understand that in places like Gaza women have a much harder life than men.

Men’s lives are not worth less. Men are not in as much danger.

when resources are scarce men as a class will have better access. When there is violence, men as a class are better able to defend themselves.

Its because women are much much MUCH more vulnerable in war. Both from their own compatriot soldiers and either as combatants in enemy hands or definitely (and I'm going to go so far as to say always) as civilians who fall into enemy hands. That's without mentioning the obvious fact that they are less able to struggle for resources and they feel more responsible for the care of infants, so do not in general prioritise themselves.
Distressing statistics to follow - be aware...
'...estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers have ranged up to 2 million. According to historian William Hitchcock in many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times. At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports, with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath. Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.'
Ditto, Ukraine, The Congo, Sudan etc. Its too disgusting to even write down.
We do women a disservice if we let them think they are on an equal footing in war.

Rape rape rape, like it is the only suffering that is inflicted in war. It isn’t. We cannot claim to suffer the most in war on the basis of one type of the horrific violence. I cannot ever agree with that point of view. Not after Bosnia where women and girls were evacuated in buses and the men and boys left behind who were almost immediately massacred. Sebrenica was a genocide of 8,000 male victims. Toddlers in pyjamas to old pensioners. All killed and dumped in mass graves.

"Rape isn't as bad as death" is a blanket statement without nuance and without acknowledging that for some women it is indeed worse than death. The suicide statistics of women post-rape go up significantly in war zones, apparently. "Furthermore, 25 [out of 68] victims had suicidal ideas and impulses." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2080379/

If you want to make sure that the women of the country think of or try to commit suicide, rape is a good way to go about it. For those who survive and their families, it's very often permanently devastating.

In Ukraine the view is that some Russian soldiers commit rapes with extreme violence in order to ensure that the woman never has sex again; physically unable in some cases, mentally far too traumatized in many others.

It destroys the family too, it's a deliberate policy to make sure that family members watch in many cases and then to leave the woman alive so they are a constant reminder of the horror.

There are reports of men being castrated as well as being raped. But as far as is known (and the fog of war is thick) these are far less common than the very frequent rapes of women.

distressing
"Rape isnt as bad as death" - there are children who have not yet reached puberty whose genitals have been so badly damaged the ability to distinguish between anus and vagina will not be possible, without future surgery.

There is a claim that Pramila Patten, Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict, said that Russian soldiers were issued with viagra at the start of the war to encourage rape.

About women leaders being as bad as men leaders for starting war, given that the proportion of women rulers in comparison to male rulers is miniscule I simply don't see how one can reliably extrapolate. The imbalance is massively too great.

About Thatcher, dreadful woman as she was, she went to war because Argentina attacked first. So you can't call her the originator of the war. That was a man.

When you say "rape is not as bad as death", how exactly are you comparing them? Because a blanket statement like that just doesn't cover the complex reality.

Rape in more sexist, patriarchal cultures is also known to lead to silence, often social isolation and in some cases ostracisation.

"Also, we found that more Bosniak (Muslim) than Croat women thought the relationship with their partner worsened after the trauma. This could be explained by the fact that Bosniak women come from a more traditional culture. The social environment and personal upbringing influence the victim's reaction to rape. In societies with patriarchal social structure, victims refuse to talk about the trauma and do not want the event to be documented even in medical files."

The effects, physical and mental, of rape don't go away just because the woman is silenced.

In the Congo and I think elsewhere there are many cases of raped women being divorced by their husbands. They are sent away, with or without children, and sometimes with no means of support at all. Sometimes they die. It's a slow death instead of a fast one. Is that better?

“"Rape isn't as bad as death" is a blanket statement without nuance and without acknowledging that for some women it is indeed worse than death. The suicide statistics of women post-rape go up significantly in war zones, apparently. "Furthermore, 25 [out of 68] victims had suicidal ideas and impulses."

You are using suicide statistics (death) to argue that rape is worse than death? Has it eluded you that if women are told to choose death over rape, they’d all be dead? Instead of only some women wanting to be dead? All you’ve done is show that rape is not worse than death for the vast majority of women.

It’s an interesting question.
personally I see why the term “women and children” is used. Probably because largely it is males who are the fighters, politicians etc and women more often in less powerful Positions and women caring for children and elderly.

However that’s not to say male civilian lives aren’t important too and maybe “innocent civilians and vulnerable civilians” is a better phrase.

Are you deliberately misunderstanding @TutuDesi to be unpleasant?

It's a slow death instead of a fast one. Is that better?
Maybe, in some cases a fast death is better, but not all.

I’m facing the real possibility of that myself. My rapist gave me HPV. I’m now on the cancer pathway with suspected cervical cancer due to that HPV. So my rapist quite literally could also be my murderer, not that he’d actually serve a day in prison as dying from a rape imposed STI doesn’t count as murder.

But if he’d killed me then and there instead of raped me, I would not have seen my children grow. I would have missed out on all of that, and they’d have lost their mum. I’m happy to have had that extra years of life, if it is cervical cancer and if it does kill me. I will be finding out in the next year or so. I hope I survive this too.

So from where I am standing, I don’t think that death from rape many years later is necessarily always worse than instant death. It might be, as I cannot speak for all women. But I do think the majority of women are strong and have a desire to live.

And besides, most rape doesn’t result in death. When it does, it’s no longer a question of rape vs death, but death now vs rape + death later so the entire paradigm of what we are discussing has shifted up a notch.

Yes, similar to you, I think it should be “civilians and children” where civilians are all non-combatants male or female. It is understood most non-combatants will be female, given that we have gender gaps in terms of civilians vs combatants. But this covers the men that are innocent with the women that are innocent.

In this day and age where women serve in the armed forces, it is antiquated and a bit sexist to lump all women in with children and all men in with combatants.

I'm very sorry you went through that and I sincerely hope your results come back clear.

Still, and this is harsh of me I realise, you don't speak for all women, indeed, and I sincerely hope you weren't ostracised or divorced or your husband never touched you again because of your experience, or your family did not have to observe it. You are speaking from your own experience and own cultural values and a great deal - most - of the world work on different and older fashioned (and worse) principles and practice.

Adults should be split into civilian non-combatants and combatants (soldiers), not by male or female because that is based on traditional and outdated sex roles.

I'm afraid that you may believe that but again, a very great deal of the world still operates on different principles.

I think myself that 'women and children' is an old fashioned phrase, but understand it's a shorthand for all non-combatants and it seems that in most wars, it still accurately describes the situation. The UK and the US haven't been invaded and so we have the (necessary) luxury of rethinking the underlying concept of 'women and children'. But it's pressing reality for the inhabitants of most war zones.

@DancesWithDucks

“a very great deal of the world still operates on different principles.”

Quite, but we are talking about the conflict in Israel and Israel and Hamas both have female combatants. So that part of the world does not adhere to the old-fashioned European “women” are automatically non-combatants and therefore lumped in with the children.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12669623/israeli-lionesses-kill-hamas-gunmen.html
Why do you think most of the outrage from the ME is in regards to child deaths?

“When the U.S. pulled out of Afghanistan, we saw huge crowds of men getting those last flights. Where were the women and children?”

The families with women and children were on the evacuation flights? You might be remembering the photos of the mad rush of men who tried to storm their way onto the final flights- many lost their lives as the planes took off with them clinging to the outside and then falling to their deaths.