No uniforms and first names

[SailorStow]

My DD is only 2 but to get a head start we have been looking at schools locally.
One of our closest schools is massively over subscribed, the last distance offered has been as low as 300/400m and we fall within this.
It has a great local reputation, Ofsted good (assessed in 2022) and great KS1 and KS2 results (obviously these are a bit dated now).
Putting all of that aside, this school has no uniforms and the children call teachers by their first names.
I haven’t been able to find any reasoning from the school for these choices, it seems to have been that way for a while at this school.
I’ll be honest I was looking forward to DD having a uniform, picking clothes for myself everyday is exhausting enough!!
Excluding everything else about the school would no uniform and calling teachers by their first name be in the pros or cons list for you? How much would it bother you either way?

AIBU to view these as negatives in what otherwise seems to be a great school?

Not my experience. Due to moving around my brother and I went to 2 infant schools and 3 junior schools between us in the SE, NW and Midlands. Only one was a church school and only one of them (one of the infants) didn't have uniform. This was 80s and 90s.

Uniform has become more relaxed rather than stricter in my experience, at least at Primary. I was in shirt and tie from reception and none of the primary level schools we were at had the polo shirt option most do now. All standard state schools.

You do need to consider how recently they’ve had an inspection though. One of the ‘outstanding’ primary schools around here went 12 years without ofsted visiting, and after that long you’ve really got no idea how good it is.

@PenguinRainbows "the importance of rules, structure, hierarchy or professionalism"

But it's not about control?? Sounds exactly like control to me

Neither of those things would be in my top twenty considerations when choosing a school.

Highlighting this again because it's so true. An Outstanding school usually has very stressed staff! A Good school is actually great.

Is it Kings Heath primary in Birmingham? Thats the only one I know of that hasn't got a uniform. Probably not as it hasn't got a catchment these days.

Both my DDs went to our non uniform local primary. I was a bit concerned about the lack of uniform before I visited, but the feel of the school was so lovely and warm that it became a non issue and I was delighted when they both got a place there. The school population is from a mix of economic and ethnic backgrounds and I can honestly say that clothes have never been a negative differentiator. In the older years some children used them to express individualism (like the boy in DD1's class who wore a blazer and a boater every day) and in the younger years there was much excitement about how many friends had the exact same leggings from ASDA but it was never a cause of bullying or one upmanship. This was apparently not the case at the next closest primary where non uniform days apparently involved a lot of angst about the "right" clothes in the upper years.

Our school also used first names for teachers in reception and year one but changed this when we had a change in head. I didn't have a strong opinion either way and struggled with the switch more than my children did!

I seriously think that these issues are not important ones when considering the choice of school. I also echo PPs who have said that an OFSTED outstanding school may not be better than a good school. For me, it's about your child feeling happy, secure, supported and wanting to go in and learn every day. If the school succeeds in providing this, you are onto a winner.

@SailorStow I'm not in the UK and my child has just started at school. No uniform, and mostly the teachers are called "teacher". I would never have considered no uniform to be something negative. And I can't understand the posters here suggesting that it indicates that the teaching is lax in some way.

I grew up in the UK so have plenty of experience with uniform. If parents struggle to clothe their children in new things (as per a PP who suffered with 5th hand clothing), what difference does uniform make? You're still wearing a 5th hand school sweatshirt etc which surely doesn't look the same as the kids who have a new one at the start of every year, not to mention shoes, bags, even pencil cases (as well as things like mobile phones and headphones for older kids).

Where I’m from (Northern European country) no schools have uniforms (primary through sixth form equivalent) and everyone calls teachers by their first names. We all grow up perfectly civilised and polite. I’m not anti-uniform but think it would be weird to choose a school based on something like that. As to either of those things indicating a lack of discipline, my friends educated in the UK seem to describe a lot more bullying and disruptive behaviour than I ever did at school 🤷‍♀️

We didn't have school uniform till I got high school. She'll probably be much more comfortable in her own clothes anyway.

Not this one, we are in London.

My kids school is like this and I absolutely love it.

All schools in my country are like that - no uniforms (and no shoes inside! Which is lovely as the school stays much cleaner) and teachers are called by their first name, or nicknames, or just teacher. It works perfectly behind and certainly in DD's school at least the children are more respectful of teachers and better behaved than I remember children that age being when I was in school in the UK - we had zero respect for most of the teachers and there was so much bad behaviour and vandalism.

We relocated from a traditional area to a more liberal area. The best school was a first names/no uniform school. Like you, we were concerned but our visit to the school turned our opinions. My 4 children all loved the school and achieved high GCSES and A-levels. The school had a stimulating curriculum and offered wonderful out of class activities - each 10th day was an off timetable activities day, then each term there was a whole week of immersive projects, trips etc. The staff were mainly young, enthusiastic and creative. It was wonderful for my children, two of whom were academic and two who were more creative and sporty.

My children never wore school uniforms. It was a positive that their schools were able to focus on things that mattered like learning, behaviour etc and not what the children were wearing..They were excellent supportive schools.
Also it is very common in many European countries for there to be no uniform and for children to call their teachers by their first name. It doesn't mean there is no respect. It does mean there is often a better relationship between teacher and student.

I grew up in Scandinavia called all my teachers by their first names in the 80s and never wore a uniform. My children grew up in the UK wore uniform and called all their teachers by their surnames.

They did not have any meaning for how good a schooling experience we had.

I would be very happy to send my child to that school.

There's a fixation with uniforms in the UK that is not warranted by any evidence that they contribute at all to any aim of a school.

Kids in the US do perfectly well in non-uniform schools, and nobody pulls their hair out choosing clothes in the morning either. You buy leggings, sweatpants, tops, hoodies, t-shirts, etc, and kids choose what they feel like wearing and off they trot. When you wear your own choice of clothing every day, the specialness disappears.

As far as first names - why not? Again, does formality offer any meaningful positive contribution to the experience of children in the learning environment?

There are a great many external elements that are considered central in UK schools, but they're not.

@earthhz
It's very much a UK thing to be so heavily invested in the idea of uniforms despite the evidence that they achieve nothing, and fearful of the effect of relaxing uniform and formality rules in case it led to anarchy, when it is patently clear that there are schools that are incapable of functioning because of the behaviour of students, lack of engagement with education, and teacher disillusionment that has led to a growing shortage across the country . There are schools where students can't use the loo during the school day because the loos are locked to prevent destruction by hooligans.

The map you linked to shows countries that were formerly part of the British Empire, countries where there are authoritarian regimes, and extremely poor countries wearing uniforms. The rest of the developed west does not.

"The very nature of their approach does not value the appearance of rules, structure, hierarchy, or professionalism."

You need to look past external appearance when you're seeking professionalism. You're implying that teachers in the successful education systems where uniforms are not worn and teachers are addressed by their first names are unprofessional, flying in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. Teachers elsewhere are both professional and effective.

You'll find when you look a little deeper than you do at present that mutual respect and authoritative leadership work really well in a school setting, far better than the imposition of a hierarchical system that seeks to imitate the effects of those elements without building any of the solid foundations authoritative school and classroom leadership bring to the school environment.

Hierarchy is a crutch, and you're mistaking external elements for essentials.

There’s one like this near me. The uniform and names thing is much of a muchness imo, but the school attracts a lot of permissive parents and the discipline issues aren’t great (and neither is the school’s strategy for addressing them). Not for us.

My children went to a primary school (not in UK) with no uniform, and they called their teachers by their first names. This didn't impact any other aspect of the school. It was an excellent school and there was mutual respect between teachers and children.
My DC are now in a secondary school with uniforms and Mr and Mrs...... that's also a great school, and they adapted very easily.

Interestingly despite no study ever being able to prove that uniform improves any measurable outcome, there’s some evidence that strict uniform policies actually cause children to identify less with their school and feel like they belong to it less.

(There was one study that “proved” the opposite - that uniform created a sense of pride in the school - but it was funded by a school uniform company.)

Professional? What professions wear uniforms? Not many - it's more likely in blue collar jobs.
As for hierarchy, that's only important if you want children to learn their place at the bottom, surely.
Rules - all schools have rules, they won't function without them.

You can say it produces whatever you like, but the very nature of their approach does not value the importance of rules, structure, hierarchy or professionalism

Total non sequitur. Why would wearing your own clothes 'not value the importance of rules'? That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

Personally I'd rather my child go in her own clothes to be honest.

The first name thing. We did it at sixth form. Obviously I know that's different but we don't expect our children to call anytime else by their surnames so I can't see how it would have a detrimental effect on them.