To be really worried about the poor, disabled and elderly this winter?

[Namechangenhsworried]

I’ve just got in after spending nearly 14 hours in urgent care at my local hospital. During this time they didn’t even have the capacity to X-ray me. In the end I had to leave and fortunately what is a suspected broken hand and infection (the injury resulted in broken skin which has got infected) is manageable and I will be able to pay to have private treatment tomorrow after work.

I know much of the NHS isn’t in a good place but was shocked by just how bad it was. I have spent two days trying to get a response from a dr at 111 , my GP is off sick and it’s virtually impossible to see the locum. The queue for urgent care was out of the door and down the street (took an hour just to wait to get registered). The centre was standing room only with people saying they had been waiting for over 12 hours. Most of the staff looked exhausted , were running between patients and many irritable (one was angrily shouting at someone who was clearly unwell but it looked as though they had just snapped under the pressure). Staff complained of staff shortages, a lot of the equipment didn’t seem to work and on top of that they were having to try out a new records system which just seemed to be causing more problems.

I felt so sorry for everyone. I know things have been bad before but this just seemed so much worse than I’ve seen it before. It was like people had just given up /staff and patients were broken. And to make matters worse we are not even at peak flu/covid etc time. I should be able to get help from elsewhere but what about those who can’t? It’s so scary.

in the circumstances it doesn’t feel right that this lame government should be allowed to carry on whilst it is causing so much harm. But even if there is a change in leadership.- what then? Can this still be improved? We need change/to intervene before even more people suffer. It’s disgraceful that so many senior managers, private companies , the pharmaceutical industry, recruitment agencies and IT companies are making huge profits out of the NHS whilst so many of our most vulnerable can’t even get a basic service. It’s so sad and I just don’t know if it can be turned around.

It’s hard. When I broke my finger, I was even advised by 111 to not go to casualty as I would be there all night (it happened at around 4pm) and to go to Urgent Care the next day. I was in the queue an hour before it opened and, to be fair, I was seen relatively quickly once I was in but it was packed to the rafters. The queue was massive as I left. It was December and there were about 50 people shivering outside with another 50 or so inside waiting.

@ruby1957 "Mass immigration with no increase in health care capacity
Life-style issues
NICE guidelines that insist 'choice' is available when the capacity is not really there. e.g. elective c-sections, weight-loss surgery
The reluctance of people to care for themselves and use common sense first aid instead of rushing to the GP or A & E"

This x 100.

I've worked all over the N of England (and also in Wales) and the cost of translators seems outrageous.
These are the latest statistics I can find https://multilingual.com/nhs-spent-66-million-on-translation-and-interpreting-services-in-2019-2020-new-study-from-inbox-translation-finds/

Bear in mind that Health Care Professionals have to obtain Informed Consent before commencing a treatment. If we don't it's classed as an assault and there is always some 'Ambulance Chasing' solicitor ready to sue.

@Seagrassbasket completely agree. I work in healthcare albeit in the community and people just cannot accept death. There is also the issue of compliance, no following advice, removing bandaging every day from chronic leg ulcers, having to visit frequently because they have removed them or they are soaking because they won’t have bed rest or stay off their feet for a portion of the day. All of that equipment costs thousands the lack of personal responsibility is bad

You're singing off my hymn sheet.

If a GP puts 'old age' as a cause of death, some relatives go bananas. "They must have died of something" they complain.

And don't get me started on 'non-compliance' or I'd be here all day. 🙄

@pumpkinpiesarefab yep those who don’t see it everyday honestly have no idea. There are fates worse than death. The poster who’s fil is having cancer treatment despite
it not being curative I would question why as well. Obviously personal choice and autonomy are so important but we need to start being more frank with people. Spend the last portion of your life feeling like crap because of treatments, unable to go out or see people as we so often come across? Or enjoy the last portion of your life?

i also believe that if people knew the true cost of what they were using they wouldn’t, some compression systems can be £100s and then the cost of a nurse to come out and apply etc

Correct. People who just want to pour in more money are crazy. It needs complete reform, and that includes some personal responsibility and financial contribution from the population. This has absolutely nothing to do with party politics.

I find the nhs is brilliant in an actual life or death emergency but they seem to miss things until it's too late all too often and the waiting lists are ridiculous. We've spent the last 18 months being pushed from pillar to post trying to sort out my son's bedwetting. We also had to wait 6 months for a hearing test. Which doesn't sound very important but his teacher of the deaf wouldn't see him without an up to date hearing test in case he'd been cured without us noticing. So the hearing test delay caused delays in other areas. He is also waiting for major surgery on his mouth which had to be cancelled last year because ENT spent ages faffing about and we are still waiting on a new date.

When my other son nearly died 2 years ago the nhs was brilliant when it was an emergency. Then when things had calmed down a bit it was back to long waiting lists again.

Lol- ‘not getting the full story’.
I caught my hand/ fingers in a door at the weekend. It was incredibly painful but I thought I could cope - painkillers, Ice etc. Some of the skin on my fingers was broken (part of my nail was pulled out) and subsequently (over the next day) got infected. As I am diabetic I thought it needed treatment .

i am getting it seen to now and being prescribed antibiotics. To me that wasn’t really the issue. I’m sorry if I didn’t express myself clearly and used the wrong language. My point was that the staff and patients I saw last night were under huge pressure and the systems clearly weren’t working - for anyone. I know experiences differ widely in different hospitals and even departments but it wasn't nice to see and can’t be sustainable.

Yes after a nearly 14 hour wait I was referred to X-ray where I was told there would be another 7 hour wait for that to be done and then I’d have to return to urgent care for treatment. I was exhausted and had work today. I am fortunate. I can pay for alternative treatment . What about those who can’t and when the flu/covid season is at its worse? What happens then?

I am grateful to people who have responded : especially those who shared their experiences and helpful suggestions.

Agree with all of this. Especially the degrees and the funding.

The NHS is NOT short of money.

"Some of the skin on my fingers was broken (part of my nail was pulled out) and subsequently (over the next day) got infected. As I am diabetic I thought it needed treatment ."

So who diagnosed a 'broken hand'??

Why didn't you arrange to see see a private podiatrist who could have removed any extraneous nail (under anaesthetic) prescribed antibiotics as necessary, assessed you for a fracture and arranged re-dressings/referral on as appropriate?

Podiatrists are qualified to treat/assess hands as well as feet

You could also have asked your GP practice for a referral to an NHS Podiatrist, but I suspect the waiting list would have been longer.

Can I just say in regards to nurses not needing a degree I don’t agree with that comment. I am in my final year and I always thought the same, worked as a home carer for years then got a community HCA job before starting my training. I can now see as a final year student and having been on placements why we need to be trained to a degree level, nurses are now doing more of what only a doctor is would have done years ago, we are accountable professionals who need to be able to provide rationale for the reasons we are providing a treatment. More and more patients want to know why a treatment is being used or why we are using a certain dressing, what is wrong with them and why e.g. what is causing their leg ulcers or why their legs are swollen etc. More and more end of life care is being given in the community we need to know why certain medications are being given in drivers, how much can be used or mixed within drivers.

Hmm,
I agree that in the community all Health Professionals need to have clinical autonomy and have the training/skill set/scope of practice to make decisions 'on the hoof' as it where. This is where 'real' nursing comes in as there is no back-up from ward staff etc.
I'm not sure a degree is necessary but certainly 3 years f/t training with at least 50% 'hands-on' experience.

You think Labour would be better? Take a look at wales

@pumpkinpiesarefab i don’t know about brick uni but I’m doing my degree via OU and it’s definitely 50/50

I assume by financial contribution from the population you mean a small fee to see a GP, attend A&E etc in the same way we have co-pay for dentistry?
Hmm how's that working for us with dentists?

It does seem very variable.

My most recent use of NHS was about 3 weeks ago when DD broke a number of bones in her foot. We called 111 who advised us to go to X hospital as it had the shortest waiting time when we phoned and the urgent care centres were closed. We waited exactly 3 hours before being called through. She was checked over, given some stronger pain killers, sent to X-ray, x-ray checked, given boot and crutch and were out less than 45 minutes after being called in.

The 3 hour wait was obviously not ideal (how I wished for an arm chair and a cup of tea!!) but over all I thought it was a good service. the staff were lovely, the whole thing (barring the initial wait) was efficient and everything seemed well joined up

What we did notice was that a lot of people were leaving - some of them had come in after us. That seems a waste of the receptionists time and of medical staff who had to call for them only for them not to be there - and they would cme out again 10 minutes or so later and call for them again - presumably to be sure they'd not gone to the toilet etc.

@pumpkinpiesarefab Actually most analyses suggest the NHS has far too few managers/chiefs for the number of other staff/Indians. (although we need more of all staff! Things like changing the system so nurses have to pay for training and get into debt have been a huge error, plus everyone is so badly paid for their skill and the stress of the job).

But on the managers point - managers are essential to ensure efficient use of resources, be it money, people, equipment, space... Administering a huge system like the NHS takes a lot of managerial effort. Without sufficient levels of (good) managers, inefficiencies spiral. You end up doing a lot less with what you have. You can find many analyses and reports out there that go into this, but here's just one:

www.ippr.org/news-and-media/press-releases/nhs-staff-desperate-for-new-managers-so-they-have-more-time-to-care-for-patients

In general, I am now at a point where I have no faith in the NHS and so wouldn't take a job that didn't offer good private medical care (yes it doesn't cover A&E, but it's great for all the rest). And I hate that it is so. We are creeping towards an American system where you need your job to provide healthcare! I'm in a privileged position where these jobs are open to me. I despair and worry knowing that many aren't so lucky, and, more selfishly, that one day I'll retire and lose that insurance.

I've got private health insurance through work (I would never pay for it). I sometimes think people would advocate for private health insurance must never tried to make an insurance claim. If they had they'd have first hand experience of how the first thing insurance companies do is try to find any way they can get out of paying the claim.

The nurse I saw in Urgent Care said she thought i had broken bones etc. The swelling and pain was a big clue. She wanted an X-ray to confirm. Broken bones (and the infection) have been confirmed today and treated.

i couldn’t get to see a GP let alone a podiatrist. I followed the published NHS guidance on what to do in my area if you have suspected break. I think that is probably enough about my injury. Wasn’t really what I was getting at with my post….

There are many many Qualified Nurses, Paramedics, Doctors (and Teachers) who are not currently practising.

Why? Often because after years of being put into dangerous situations, writing endless Datixes and warning managers that they could not continue to work like this they left, hoping that their exit alongside many others would make someone in government notice.

Instead they were glad to see the back of experienced, expensive staff who were professional enough to complain about these situations and instead put in cheaper, younger, short term and temporary staff in a 'churn and burn' recruitment merry-go-round that resulted in endless work for HR and 'workforce strategy' consultants.

Several posters have mentioned one of the problems is the cost of the elderly and the fact they no longer want to 'accept death'.

I have to agree with this. I have extensive knowledge of a elderly person in their eighties. In the last five years they have had heart surgery with extensive follow up care for a blocked artery (nearly died on table as had another heart attack so clearly not fit for surgery really).

They take a huge amount of tablets for heart problems (around 10 per day), tablets for crumbling bones (they are bent over considerably), tablets for mental health, tablets for other things. Their daily pill box contains about 25 tablets. What is the cost to the NHS of these tablets? Not to mention the pharmacy dispensing them, the GP overseeing the perscription and the man delivering them to her door as she can't collect them (housebound)

Over last few years over twenty falls - some resulting in broken bones requiring hospital stays and physiotherapy.

Extensive use of ambulances - calls them regularly for anything and always tells them she has 'chest pain' as she knows that gets a quick response. I'm talking at least once a month an ambulance is called out when only about 5% of these calls actually required an ambulance (her GP did ban her from calling them but it did not stop her)

Huge problems with excessive bleeding so in hospital several times for this (heart tablets cause bleeding through thinned blood)

Huge number of GP, dentist, optician, mental health appointments. Far, far more than an 'average' person

We are in Scotland so she gets carers 4 x per day free of charge to do personal care. Often she refuses to let them wash her. Cost paid by TAXPAYER (comes out of council tax actually) £832 per month.

Gets Attendance Allowance - also funded presumably by taxpayer - £407 per month to be used to 'support her' so can be used for a cleaner or gardener or companion. It's not means tested so even if you are a rich old person you can still get it.

Fuel allowance this year - £600 again not means tested.

I should say this person has a poor quality of life - incontinent and can do next to nothing for themselves. Lots of mental health issues and constantly distressed despite massive amounts of family/friend support.

It is clear the best thing would be for her to be allowed to die but doctors are not allowed to unless the patient requests treatments to be withdrawn. The cost to the NHS , taxpayer and council tax payer must be ASTRONOMICAL - to keep one sick elderly person alive beyond what nature intended. I stress this person is not happy and not enjoying life but is 'too scared to die'

How is the NHS meant to cope with this. Now multiply it by thousands and thousands of elderly people.

Nothing to do with age, but all to do with his general medical condition(s) and dreadful prognosis.

I agree. This also goes for their relatives as well though. I saw somebody on TV in 2020 complaining that her father wasn't ventilated when he had covid. The father was 89 and had been living in a care home for 18 months but according to her was 'fit as a fiddle' .

@Kendodd This does worry me, but I've never had any issues so far, generally every consultation or treatment I've needed has been pre-authorised and has always been approved. Perhaps I've just been lucky so far.