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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be concerned about school residential?

77 replies

Hotchocolate2023 · 23/10/2023 20:04

Child is 9, autistic and adhd. Has a full EHCP and full time 1-1. His 1-1 is scheduled to remain at school looking after DC who don't want to go. My DC does want to go. School have stated that "they take lots of children with EHCPs on residentials" and left it at that. Lots of children with EHCPs aren't runners and prone to meltdowns. He has an individual behaviour plan to support his behaviour. They pulled a child off the trip last minute last year after it was all paid for because they risk assessed them out at the last opportunity.

They have said they must sign a code of conduct but it contradicts his well known needs.

AIBU to email now they are asking us to pay and ask exactly how he will be supported without his TA and for an individual risk assessment to show he has been properly planned for? My instinct is his 1-1 isn't going because they aren't planning on him going but they don't want to tell me no and want me to decide not to send him.

OP posts:
cansu · 23/10/2023 21:30

MrsDaniFilth is not the OP. She does however have the view that there is never any justification for not taking a child with send on a residential. Safety concerns are just nonsense discrimination.

The OP has a very sensible approach to it.

Doveyouknow · 23/10/2023 21:32

My ds has ASD and has 1:1 support at school. He has gone on 2 residential trips. On both of those his 1:1 TAs did not go on the trip but the school put in place a risk assessment and ensured there was the right ratio of staffing to support him. He had a great time, it gave him confidence and a bit more independence. I would concentrate on how they will support him and keep him safe rather than which staff go on the trip.

CateinEd · 23/10/2023 21:35

but I do want to be 100% confident that school are going to keep him safe and properly supported

The risk assessment is about identifying lowering the risk. This isn't a guarantee of 100% safety. Will the RA give you 100% confidence? What if it doesn't?

The school I mentioned with the parent present - still an incident.

GoFaster83 · 23/10/2023 21:40

I've taken children away as a teacher with similar needs. Obviously the 1:1 still needs toilet and rest breaks but we planned that together to ensure the child was always covered. We all skipped breaks and time out to do thi for each other and that's part of camp! We have always had a blast.

Noideawhatisgoingon · 23/10/2023 21:45

The school need to have a plan in place of which members of staff will be supporting your son. They should have a separate risk assessment for him which highlights the potential risks and how they are going to make sure he is getting the support he needs.
To not include him or to support him is discriminatory. If his 1:1 is not going, then who going to be his named adults?

It makes me so cross because he should be able to have the experiences the other children have. We’ve taken extra members of staff, changed activities and changed food plans in the past to ensure all our year 6 children have been able to attend. The school can ensure his attendance by making reasonable adjustments.

saraclara · 23/10/2023 21:51

The TA has probably said that she can't go. Which is fine. No-one can be made to go.

It's all very well posters saying 'well another TA can go instead' but TAs are paid a pittance, and often have children of their own. And they're few and far between in most schools. Whatever a child's entitlement, a school cannot just summon up someone on near minimum wage who's prepared to work/ be responsible for him, unpaid, for an extra 18 hours a day on top of their usual working day. And under much more challenging conditions than in the classroom.

Bex5490 · 23/10/2023 22:00

Some ridiculous responses on here and I say that as a school leader and parent of autistic child.

No child should ever be taken on a trip where he/ she cannot be kept safe. TAs have extensive training to support the needs of the children they support within the classroom. This does not extend to overnight care and I wouldn’t want to put that level of accountability onto a staff member where something could go so wrong. If it is feasible then the child should be included but not at the risk of their own safety and the m mental well being of a TA.

As a parent, why would I want to put my child’s safety at risk in this way?

Hankunamatata · 23/10/2023 22:05

Go and have a conversation with the school and I would want a risk assessment completed.

It's all well and good quoting laws and demanding schools behave a certain way but if they can't keep the child safe I wouldn't want him to be going.

itsalongwaybackfromsorry · 23/10/2023 22:05

Unfortunately, your son's TA may not be able to offer any time outside of school hours. TAs often work those roles solely because it works with their own family' needs time-wise.

Hankunamatata · 23/10/2023 22:09

Also some primaries dont have extra staff. All out classroom assistants are assigned to sen children so they can't take extra staff. Out school stopped residential as they couldn't meet the needs of sen children as there wasn't extra staff avaliable to provide 1:1 care at residentials. And parent threaten to sue for disability discrimination so now no children go. They do day trips instead

Overthebow · 24/10/2023 08:50

Hankunamatata · 23/10/2023 22:09

Also some primaries dont have extra staff. All out classroom assistants are assigned to sen children so they can't take extra staff. Out school stopped residential as they couldn't meet the needs of sen children as there wasn't extra staff avaliable to provide 1:1 care at residentials. And parent threaten to sue for disability discrimination so now no children go. They do day trips instead

That is so sad that no children get to go now.

SecondUsername4me · 24/10/2023 09:56

Hankunamatata · 23/10/2023 22:09

Also some primaries dont have extra staff. All out classroom assistants are assigned to sen children so they can't take extra staff. Out school stopped residential as they couldn't meet the needs of sen children as there wasn't extra staff avaliable to provide 1:1 care at residentials. And parent threaten to sue for disability discrimination so now no children go. They do day trips instead

Is this England? I thought it was mandated through the curriculum that schools had to offer an overnight residential at some point during Primary?

Hankunamatata · 24/10/2023 10:30

No another part of the uk

Bex5490 · 24/10/2023 11:12

SecondUsername4me · 24/10/2023 09:56

Is this England? I thought it was mandated through the curriculum that schools had to offer an overnight residential at some point during Primary?

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It isn’t mandatory in the UK either - nearly all schools offer one but it’s not compulsory. 😊

Diamondcurtains · 24/10/2023 14:40

Sometimeswinning · 23/10/2023 20:12

I doubt it will say residential/overnight hours.

Show quote history

No but if it says 1:1 at school that will cover the day whilst away. If they can’t cover it they should definitely not be taking him.

Diamondcurtains · 24/10/2023 14:41

Hankunamatata · 23/10/2023 22:05

Go and have a conversation with the school and I would want a risk assessment completed.

It's all well and good quoting laws and demanding schools behave a certain way but if they can't keep the child safe I wouldn't want him to be going.

Well exactly but they are saying that it’s fine!

Original poster
Hotchocolate2023 · 24/10/2023 15:41

My concern was definitely that they weren't willing to discuss the trip re DS for him. I know without doubt that supporting him on this trip will require a lot of support and he will absolutely need 1-2-1 within reach at all times. It doesn't have to be his normal 1-2-1 but looking at the list of who is going adult wise I struggle to see how they would cover him. I'd much rather an open conversation with school at this stage to determine what they can and can not support for the trip so that he can do as much as possible within the boundaries of what they can support.

As it is, DS has come home today having been told in quite some depth how difficult and rubbish he will find the trip from school. I can't help but feel the intention was to push me/DS into the position of not trying to send him than them say that they don't want for him to go. It was a similar circumstance with the child who was pulled last minute, the school wouldn't communicate with the parent, parent persevered with booking them on and school at the last minute said they couldn't enable the child to go.

OP posts:
Bex5490 · 24/10/2023 15:55

Hotchocolate2023 · 24/10/2023 15:41

My concern was definitely that they weren't willing to discuss the trip re DS for him. I know without doubt that supporting him on this trip will require a lot of support and he will absolutely need 1-2-1 within reach at all times. It doesn't have to be his normal 1-2-1 but looking at the list of who is going adult wise I struggle to see how they would cover him. I'd much rather an open conversation with school at this stage to determine what they can and can not support for the trip so that he can do as much as possible within the boundaries of what they can support.

As it is, DS has come home today having been told in quite some depth how difficult and rubbish he will find the trip from school. I can't help but feel the intention was to push me/DS into the position of not trying to send him than them say that they don't want for him to go. It was a similar circumstance with the child who was pulled last minute, the school wouldn't communicate with the parent, parent persevered with booking them on and school at the last minute said they couldn't enable the child to go.

This isn’t fair. They should have a clear discussion with you.

Is this a Year 6 activities residential? On one of our residential trips we drove a minibus with a pupil and his TA up for the first day of the trip and they returned the same day late in the evening . Maybe this could be an option? Or are you available to attend the trip with him?

When you say he would need support 24 hrs, what would this look like overnight? In most places the children sleep in large shared dorms which doesn’t sound like it would be suitable for your DS. Some provide additional individual rooms but a TA obviously wouldn’t be able to share a room for safeguarding reasons.

Bex5490 · 24/10/2023 15:57

Also, when you say the school are unwilling to discuss, have you asked for a meeting about it?

Maybe they are waiting to see who signs up for it. I don’t usually ask to discuss trips with particular parents unless they’ve indicated that they want their child to go…

Original poster
Hotchocolate2023 · 24/10/2023 16:21

Bex5490 · 24/10/2023 15:55

This isn’t fair. They should have a clear discussion with you.

Is this a Year 6 activities residential? On one of our residential trips we drove a minibus with a pupil and his TA up for the first day of the trip and they returned the same day late in the evening . Maybe this could be an option? Or are you available to attend the trip with him?

When you say he would need support 24 hrs, what would this look like overnight? In most places the children sleep in large shared dorms which doesn’t sound like it would be suitable for your DS. Some provide additional individual rooms but a TA obviously wouldn’t be able to share a room for safeguarding reasons.

Show quote history

I can't go in full with him as I have a younger child with their own disabilities, however, if they were open and said they feel they could support him from say 8.30-3.30, I can certainly do the running to and fro etc. Likewise, if they stated he can do fuller days until say after dinner but there are a couple of activities happening at xx time on a certain day they are concerned about, I can support him for those by being there when it's specifically needed at set times.

There is no realistic way he can do overnight. He can't keep himself safe, has no concept of personal boundaries and is a flight risk. I wouldn't put that on anyone.

I've asked to discuss it and got brushed off. I've also been clear DS wants (well wanted now) to attend and that whilst I know there will be limitations, I'd like to support him to do as much as possible to respect the fact he would like to attend.

OP posts:
Bex5490 · 24/10/2023 16:33

I think what you’re asking for is very reasonable and you’re being very realistic with your expectations. They should be thinking of ways to ensure that he is as included as possible and clearly you are willing to help too.

I’d email the headteacher and explain that he really wants to go, your expectations aren’t unreasonable but you want to work together to make a plan for him.

Good luck OP - your boy is lucky to have a mummy that is so ready to fight for what he deserves x

Berushni · 24/10/2023 16:47

Diamondcurtains · 23/10/2023 20:10

My son is 24 now and severely autistic. He did go on one overnight trip away and his TA went with him. He went to a special school so a bit different but there’s absolutely no way I’d have allowed him to go without his TA. Your son is funded for 1:1 so she should attend with him. It’s there in his EHCP. It’s the school’s duty to provide the support detailed in section F of his EHCP.

The funding does not have to be for a particular member of staff who must go wherever the child goes out of school hours. Yes, in practice, there probably needs to be an extra member of staff on top of those otherwise in the ratio for the other children, with care shared between different adults, but this is asking for good will from individuals to give up their time and the TA herself is not a servant and can remain at school and go home at the end of the work day!

Bobbybobbins · 24/10/2023 17:01

I have arranged quite a few outdoor activity type of school trips and we often took pupils with EHCPs but always with additional staff to support them (though not necessarily their usual TA) and had to plan eg sleeping arrangements very carefully.

We once took a deputy head with us for one night so a boy with significant EBD needs could go.

niclw · 24/10/2023 17:09

Request a meeting with the school. Insist that the educational visits coordinator, SENCO and headteacher are there in addition to the staff member organising the trip. Just tell them that you wish to meet about the trip. Say nothing else. When you get to the meeting outline what you have said on here making it clear that you are happy to run him back and forth so he can attend for one or two days only but not overnight. Be upfront that you are concerned about him attending but you don't want to agree if they are not able to support him. Make it clear in front of everyone what you expect to be planned for now rather than at the last minute.

I ran a trip year ago for a child with very severe allergies (so totally different situation) but we sat down with parents really early on in order to allow time to plan for his extreme needs. The trip went smoothly and the following year on a different residential we did the same again for the same child. We wanted him to attend if we could manage the situation but we need need that early discussion and planning.

A similar situation to yours. A friend of mine told me last week that their autistic dc was able to attend residential for 2 of the 3 days. Parents drive dc there and back on the first day. 2nd day the headteacher was driving there and offered to drive dc himself and parents collected at 3.30. Dc didn't attend the 3rd day as was too tired after two very long days and need the day to decompress but the school worked with them again. If you are upfront with them hopefully they will be the same in return.

sittinginacafe · 24/10/2023 17:09

the school absolutely should make this possible. We have serious medical needs plus flight-risk children w autism. Any child who wants to go is supported to go - we make funding applications to enable this (one child needing waking care overnight for instance). This is mainstream primary BTW.

But some schools are so so underfunded and everyone is so wrecked, that your child having an absolute legal right to go may just be academic.

I think you are right and the school doesn’t want to admit that they intend to exclude your child, and are hoping you make the decision for them…