University is ten times more effective for mature students

[ResearchMcResearchFace]

WARNING THIS IS A PRIVILEGED POST
I'm in the middle of my second degree in a vocational, placement based subject.
I don't know why this is a realisation now but I'm getting ten times more out of my degree compared to my first degree, which I did at 19.

Number one, I enjoy the subject BECAUSE I know what I want to achieve afterwards. It is leading to a job which I couldn't do without the qualification. I really enjoyed my first humanities degree but just enjoying the subject isn't always enough, I went in with no clue about what I wanted to do as a career, no idea that it wouldn't actually make me more employable etc.

Number two, I understand that coursework is what you put into it. Reading widely and taking the subject to places which interest you, thinking about your experiences, applying it to your life, I can only do this as a person who has worked in many different jobs and has had first hand experience of being a patient, carer, parent, victim, UC recipient. I had no life experience at 19! Now I can focus, think both about my experience but also that of others, I'm getting way better grades compared to when I was a 19 year old writing the same essay on Jane Eyre and feminism which nearly every other person in the class wrote.

Number three, I know how lucky I am to do this and to have a bursary. I know how much this costs and so I would never think about missing a lecture or seminar unless I couldn't go. Missed loads during my first degree due to just wanting to sleep, not even doing fun stuff, just being bad at time management, missing the bus, staying to watch Americas next top model!

I think a lot of young people are similar to me. They go to uni because it's what's expected, because they don't know what else to do, because they still feel like a kid. The huge tuition fees, loans, you only get those once!! If you mess it up or don't make the most of it, you might not get a shot at another degree.
If only there was another way of giving young people that independence of being able to move away from home, live in accommodation with other people their age, increase their own knowledge of budgeting/ being responsible but without the huge student debt.
I think part of the problem with student MH is that some of our children are infantilised for much longer these days due to the modern world (lifts to secondary, don't have jobs, aren't financially responsible for much, don't have to get public transport because there isn't any or they drive) but we still expect them to adapt to uni life in the same way that people did in the 70's!
A family friends son started this year, he had no life experience, never worked, didn't have any direct debits, couldn't get buses on his own, got lost walking around, and now he's in a shared house hundreds of miles away and struggling, obviously!
Your children might be very mature and responsible but some are not mentally ready, I wasn't. I didn't understand what an opportunity university was and although I did ok, I sort of always new that I would work in a cafe afterwards, as it was my only experience of a work place.
Not surprisingly many, not all, of the younger students on my course are already not sure that they want to do the job which we are going to qualify for, and I completely get that. Not many dream of working in social care at 23. One minute you're a carefree eighteen year old doing shots and the next minute you're in court giving evidence for a child protection case. I think there are only a few twenty year olds who could adapt like that, most have direct experience or are mature due to their life experiences (and I have met a lot of these types).
Would love to hear your thoughts?

If only there was another way of giving young people that independence of being able to move away from home, live in accommodation with other people their age, increase their own knowledge of budgeting/ being responsible but without the huge student debt.

Getting a job and a flatshare?

I understand the generalisation, but you don't speak for all young people. I chose my degree at 17 (vocational), qualified at 23 and ten years later still work in that profession with a further Masters done as a part-time mature student. Which, incidentally, I hated. As an undergrad I lived at home for years 1 and 2 and commuted. As it was a healthcare-related vocational science subject I had almost full time contact hours, so no slacking off to watch telly. Moved in with my bf at the time in years 3 and 4.

I can only do this as a person who has worked in many different jobs and has had first hand experience of being a patient, carer, parent, victim, UC recipient. I had no life experience at 19!

I have no experience of any of these (except possibly patient, but as an outpatient) at 33, and no intention of experiencing them hopefully. Your life experience is not everyone's.

Agree. I completely wasted my years at university and it's one of my biggest regrets. I was far too immature.

I did improve after working at a cleaning job during my third year abroad and realising what a privilege it was to go to lectures and seminars.

Also apparently your prefrontal cortex, which controls executive function, only reaches full development at around aged 25. In other words you're far less able to make sensible decisions to further your internal goals until this age.

I'd love to get to where you are OP. Glad you're enjoying it!

I’d love to redo my university time, I know I could/would get so much more out of the whole experience. I’m 67 but have felt like that about university for about 30 years. I think I first thought it when my three went off to university at 18, with their car load of pots and pans, full of enthusiasm, but so young!
I did a teaching degree in the mid 70’s and looking back was so immature, I must have looked like another pupil when I went to my first school for “TP” as we called it in those days.
My children went to beautiful cities for their university days, but, of course, had no appreciation of their surroundings! Until years later.
Even though they were “ young” I actually think they were more mature in the OO’s than I was in the 70’s. I hadn’t moved more than a few hundred metres from where I grew up, so moving to an unknown city was a big thing. I agree with you though about 18 years now, I think it’s gone full circle. My eldest grandchild will be university age very soon and I can’t imagine it at all.

And isn’t there an expression something like “ youth is wasted on the young”?

Teaching mature students is a hundred times more rewarding and productive. They actually do the reading and understand what they are there for.

YABU

A family friends son started this year, he had no life experience, never worked, didn't have any direct debits, couldn't get buses on his own, got lost walking around, and now he's in a shared house hundreds of miles away and struggling, obviously!

being that clueless is very unusual, and your own experience is about you, not every student.

Going to university is not going into a tiny box and be stuck in it for life. Many degrees open a lot of completely different doors, give you many options. You can do very well academically, and decide what to do with your life on the way.

It's also ok to change your mind, start a career, change direction using your degree and previous experience.

Reading widely and taking the subject to places which interest you, thinking about your experiences, applying it to your life, sorry but your view is so narrow-minded and focused solely on your own experience, your "maturity" doesn't seem to help you at all.

I agree there’s a problem with teenagers being shunted through an education system which, in many cases, requires them to select their field of study based on having at least some idea of what career they’d like to do for a large portion of their adult lives, before they have any idea of the vast breadth of careers and industries which actually exist in the first place, or what their real world skills are. I think the US higher education system, which offers greater flexibility and choice than the UK one, has a lot to offer.

I don’t think that poorly parented young adults incapable of catching public transport, walking somewhere without getting lost, understanding basic bank finances, or washing their own laundry, are a good example of why we should rethink how university education is provided.

In general, you’re correct, OP, but there are always exceptions. I have very occasionally encountered a mature student who I would describe as unteachable. They invariably came from a corporate background (I teach a humanities subject) and were not used to being in a position of pupilage. Oh, and they were also male, and particularly couldn’t deal with being taught by women who were younger than them. Or even the same age: one of them told one of the female professors in my department that “a woman’s place is in the wrong”.

You make some interesting points, @ResearchMcResearchFace - and actually it’s not just mature people who are noticing the issue; I’ve been hearing from a few late teen / early 20s undergrads who are in despair at the immaturity, unpreparedness and lack of engagement many of their peers bring to their studies.

Anyway, this seems a good place to drop a link to the Mature Study and Retraining board -

which was set up relatively recently to provide a space for anyone who finds themselves asking the question ‘Am I too old to …?’

@ResearchMcResearchFace

If only there was another way of giving young people that independence of being able to move away from home, live in accommodation with other people their age, increase their own knowledge of budgeting/ being responsible but without the huge student debt.

There is, it's called getting a job! I "grew" up within the first few weeks of starting my first full time job, being around proper adults, having responsibility thrust upon you, etc., learning to live alone in a flat, etc., is what makes you an adult!

Also, I don't think that going to Uni actually gives most students those kind of skills, as they're so pandered to, it's not reality. Obviously, it's a step up from living at home, but it's still not real adult life. Drinking and shagging everything in sight isn't being responsible or independent, it's just extending childhood really. In student accommodation, they're pandered to by the porters or reception, i.e. "lost you keys, no problem, here's another set", "set off the fire alarm, ha ha, don't do it again!", always someone there to accept deliveries, so no need to think about ordering stuff for when you'll be in, etc.

I'm a mature student.

I don't have a comparison as this is my first experience of Uni so I'll go by what I see of my younger cohort.

The majority live at home/uni halls (London based Uni), have part time jobs, plenty of time to socialise, experience all that Uni has to offer and do quite well in the assignments. Good for them, they joys of being young! However, they have little to no lived experience and in general seem to struggle with seminars where we discuss pre 1990's "ism's" (colonialism/ feminism/racism/ableism/misogyny etc). Yesterday one young person would not believe that physically disabled people had no access to buses etc , last term one young girl argued that she was a "Radical Feminist" but wouldn't go out on a date unless the man paid for everything. The lecturer then had to spend half the seminar explaining the waves of Feminism and the definition of a Radical Feminist - in a Criminology module .
Most are engaged and look like they are enjoying learning, some are on their phones for the entire 3 hours of a lecture/seminar - including the interactive/discussion parts. This pisses me off as they often ask for an explanation (which has already been covered in great detail). Lecturers have shut that down now, telling them if they can't pay attention in class, to watch the recording/read the literature.

As a mature student, I'm struggling to get by on Student Loans, cant' work alongside as I am disabled, have caring responsibilities, family responsibilities and just, well a life outside of education and socialising.

Education wise I think I'm getting an awful lot more than some of the young people but life or Uni wise, they are getting to experience so much more than I am.

I have zero regrets about going to Uni as a mature student. For various reasons my formal education stopped at about 13. I absolutely love learning and it turns out, I am as clever as everybody thought I was!

Absolutely. I regret not putting in more effort during my undergrad and post-grad qualification. Not only should I have put in more effort but I now also understand how I could have got much more out of those courses and out of that time than I did then. After my master's I started a PhD but couldn't get interested in the subject. I also didn't understand really how to do research or work independently.

I quit the PhD, worked for a few years and then started a PhD again this time in a subject that really interested me. This time round I also understood much better what I had to do and how to do research and how to work independently. Had an absolutely great time.

Now many years later I think if I did a PhD now I'd do an even better job because of everything I have learnt since then. Oh well. As they say youth is wasted on the young. Seems like the twenties are wasted on the twenties and the thirties on the thirties. I'm sure twenty years from now I'll think I could have done a much better job in my forties than I am doing now.

Having said that, I can't imagine studying now with the responsibilities I've got now. Ie with two kids. What I'd really want is to go back twenty years and do a PhD or whatever other qualification with the knowledge and experience I have gained. In fact I'd love to go back to being a child or teenager with the knowledge of everything I've learnt since then. I'd do a much better job at being a child than I did then..😉

I do think there should be more opportunities/support for older people to go to university. At the moment (not helped by Blair's stupid 50% target), it seems all geared up to 18-21 year olds, not just the funding/financial support, but also the social side of things is highly geared towards excessive partying which doesn't interest lots of the 18-21 year olds, let alone 30/40 somethings!

I work in a big teaching hospital so I work with a lot of nursing students, can honestly say the majority of them are amazing, responsible and hardworking people. I don't see that the mature students are any better than the 19 or 20 year olds.

I was a mature student myself, I went back at 27 for a career change to study nursing. I was more grown up and probably a bit more focused on what I wanted compared to when I did my first university course at 17 but I didn't see myself as being superior in any way to the traditional students who started straight out of school.

I think the TLDR of all this is university is better because you want to be there and have a passion for what you are doing rather than feeling you ought to be there. In picking a course as a mature student you are studying something you know you have great interest in, rather than just something you think you do.

As people get older they get more clear about what they want out of life, and when they do get what they want exploiting it to the best of their ability.

That doesn't mean experiences should only be for the old though.

Whilst I am delighted you're enjoying your course, the outcomes for mature students are far worse than for those who start at 18-20. Completion rates are about 12% lower for mature students. It's much more difficult to fit study around kids, work, etc than around your social life.

I never went to uni and probably never will, unless I can convince my workplace to fund an MBA or something. I have professional qualifications and work experience, which is fine, they've gotten me to where I am now.

What I'd like to see is more and varied options for young people, rather than the GCSE-Alevel-Uni route. It's a shame the Tlevels are being scrapped.

My eldest had her education interrupted during covid and ended up going to uni via their summer school programme for 19+ ("mature") students - she was 19. From her observation, that summer programme designed to prepare students for uni life was a far better experience than the standard route that her course mates travelled to get into uni.

Everyone is different, and there should be plenty of options to acknowledge that.

I personally would favour applying to uni post results which would result in some sort of gap months/year for everyone.
Perhaps something like an expansion of NCS (National citizen service) to fill gap with paid work/volunteering/team building/careers type stuff.
I do recognise the type of teen you describe. My dc is yr13. Some parents are bonkers imo, we are in a nice area with reasonable transport. They won’t allow public transport, no pt jobs etc. It’s very hard to deal with as arrangements are made by teens eg getting train to concert at 6pm (direct train, station is right at the concert venue) Then 11th hour oh Izzy’s mum is taking us she doesn’t want her getting the train.

I do think some courses probably lend themselves more to life experience it sounds like you are doing social work.
I know when I was a trainee solicitor doing child protection work I felt very young (one court hearing the barristers wouldn’t show me photos as they were so horrible I was 22)

I did my first degree p/t aged 30. It was hard because I had rent and bills to pay and a day job so never had enough time to study properly. I took 4 years to complete a 3 yr degree and then couldn't afford to do the trainee solicitors course afterwards so ended up doing something unrelated.

The students who are not having to worry about debt and paying bills are the lucky ones. I'd like to see a return of grants to students who are academically able but cash poor.

Same with doing professional qualifications alongside working. I really struggled to not only find time to study accountancy alongside a full time job, but I also had some study costs to pay as well (employer only paid for the course and exam fees, not study books, revision books, past papers, etc), so I had to make hard decisions as to what books/papers I could afford and pace myself when I could buy them. There were a few times when I had to put expensive text books on the credit card and pay it off over 2 or 3 months when I couldn't order them from the library. It took me five years to pass all 16 of the accountancy exams, and that was studying 3/4 nights per week and a few hours each day at weekends - very little time for socialising/partying and no long breaks between terms to catch up. Uni students don't know they're born!

There really needs to be a lot more support/funding for mature students, especially those doing work related studying or doing career changes etc. We can't go on with all the support being thrown at only 18-21 year olds!

I think your experience is yours and shouldn't be generalised.

The figures do suggest that mature students drop out at higher rates (potentially related to the challenges of part-time study combine with work) and my experience of teaching at a University is that I've seen dedicated and lazy/disengaged students of all ages come through the classes I was teaching.

My own experience as an undergraduate was that I worked very hard and felt I got a lot out of my course ending with a high first class degree. Not sure that I would have done any better had I been older. Appreciate this is just another anecdote, but one that is a counterpoint to yours.

I loved studying as a mature student. I found I lapped up all the information, I looked forward to the new learning materials and adored the subject.

I studied Environmental Studies and then Animal Welfare, Policy and Legislation just for your information.

Yesterday one young person would not believe that physically disabled people had no access to buses etc

@Sam0207 sounds like they need to take a trip to the London Transport Museum. Mind you, I was astonished when I got on a tram in Vienna and found that high-floored trams were still in regular use. I thought that they would have been museum pieces by now.