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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Ignorant person seeking to be educated - Isreal conflict

55 replies

hollyblueivy · 11/10/2023 07:40

I apologise for me head being buried so far into the sand I have no idea what the headlines about Isreal / Palestine / Gaza / Hamas etc mean

Can anyone please (I realise my ignorance is unreasonable) explain to me what this is about. The history / context / what caused tensions to flair now??

Many thanks

OP posts:
YireosDodeAver · 11/10/2023 07:58

hollyblueivy · 11/10/2023 07:49

It sounds like it's heading for war.

The war has been raging for many years. It's only not officially called a war because that requires each side in the conflict to be university recognised as a sovereign state.

It looks like it's heading for genocidal extermination.

icallitasplodge · 11/10/2023 07:59

You don’t want to learn really, you want someone to sit and teach you. Tutors get £60ph. Pay us or read yourself 🤣

hollyblueivy · 11/10/2023 08:00

I didn't realise how complicated the issue was when asking the question and wasn't sure if it would have been easier to sum up such as Russia originally having power over Ukraine, it being split and them wanting it back.

I know the Russia issue is also more complex than that but can be summed up for a top line insight.

OP posts:
PuttingDownRoots · 11/10/2023 08:00

Both sides think they are right.
Both sides commiting horrifying acts because they think they are right.
Too many people dying.

GunboatDiplomacy · 11/10/2023 08:02

I agree that the 2 minute "explainer" at the beginning of this episode of The Rest Is Politics is pretty good (though I'm sure some people would object to elements, there's no such thing as an uncontested fact in this area).

Ignorant person seeking to be educated - Isreal conflict
hollyblueivy · 11/10/2023 08:03

DeadbeatYoda · 11/10/2023 07:57

I'm really sorry if you are genuine OP. If so, previous mn'ers have alerted you to the dangers of trying to understand such a complex situation by asking on here.
However, I am concerned that this post is a daily mail stunt or similar. We mustn't feed the beasts. They spread hatred and misinformation.

That's fine - I am an actual poster. Self identified as ignorant in this issue which I am sorry for but hoping to gain some understanding which I will do by reading up the recommendations on here and definitely listening to the political podcast

OP posts:
Dowhadiddydiddydum · 11/10/2023 08:03

There are some good videos about the Israel Palestine history online. I found them useful for understanding the historical context. You can’t really understand what is happening based only on what has occurred over the last week.

Long story short as I understand it is both claim the land as theirs. Israel is internationally recognised as a country, Palestine isn’t. Palestinians are therefore stateless. No agreement has been able to be reached about sharing of the land so conflict between the 2 continues. However Israel is much stronger/wealthier than Palestine so it’s an uneven fight. Leaving Palestinians in small parcels of land, more of their land being occupied over time and with terrible living conditions.

hollyblueivy · 11/10/2023 08:04

PuttingDownRoots · 11/10/2023 08:00

Both sides think they are right.
Both sides commiting horrifying acts because they think they are right.
Too many people dying.

That's so difficult as my next question would have been how can this be resolved, but it seems that it cannot. Only escalate.

OP posts:
MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 11/10/2023 08:04

Itsnotallaboutyoulikeyouthink · 11/10/2023 07:57

I don’t know any people are being so rude to the poster . What an air of importance you all have. I myself have researched to familiarise myself with the issues and have found not one source that explains it in a simple manner. We all learn differently, and take things in differently.

You won't find any sources that explain it in a simple manner...or if you do, they won't be reliable. It is a deeply complex and multilayered issue, and it can't be reduced to very simple terms. That said, it is worth taking the time to read about it so that you can begin to understand some of the complexities involved.

Circularargument · 11/10/2023 08:05

hollyblueivy · 11/10/2023 07:40

I apologise for me head being buried so far into the sand I have no idea what the headlines about Isreal / Palestine / Gaza / Hamas etc mean

Can anyone please (I realise my ignorance is unreasonable) explain to me what this is about. The history / context / what caused tensions to flair now??

Many thanks

This really isn't the place. You will mostly get polarised " it's ALL x side's fault because they are evil oppressors/vile terrorists". Plus it cannot be simply summarised and people will try to impose their own simplistic assessment on you.
News sites or a couple of books with a careful check on the author's bias would do you better?
I see poster above me has made the exact same point. Worth repeating though.

2chocolateoranges · 11/10/2023 08:06

Itsnotallaboutyoulikeyouthink · 11/10/2023 07:57

I don’t know any people are being so rude to the poster . What an air of importance you all have. I myself have researched to familiarise myself with the issues and have found not one source that explains it in a simple manner. We all learn differently, and take things in differently.

Totally agree, depending on what site you Google depends on what “side” they support so even googling it gives very conflicting views.

some people just need it explained in plain English rather than a biased view, or a confusing manner that some sites use to report it.

hollyblueivy · 11/10/2023 08:09

goodbossbadboss · 11/10/2023 07:49

Start with the book of Genesis (around chapter 14) and work your way forward through about 2000+ years of history. That'll give you some idea of how far back this goes and how deeply rooted the ideas, pain and conflict are.

Anyone who gives you an answer in a few sentences on Mumsnet really doesn't know what they're talking about. Grin

So this has been an issue since the beginning of time and has not been possible to resolve in all that time.

It's a shame they can't agree to disagree and go 50/50 on the land.

OP posts:
Museya15 · 11/10/2023 08:12

This reply has been deleted

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molosolo · 11/10/2023 08:13

OP I have been trying to understand it for years and I still don't have a complete grasp on it, there is so much to it and obviously such strong opinions on both sides it's difficult to navigate.

A mumsnetter recently posted that the history of Israel and Palestine was part of the (Alevel??) curriculum but textbooks are no longer being made due to supporters on both sides of the debate complaining that the books were biased in one way or another, the company who makes them cannot keep rewriting them because there is no way to teach this in a way that is acceptable to both sides. I think that goes some way to explaining why it is so difficult to get an accurate unbiased understanding of what has happened and continues to happen.

hollyblueivy · 11/10/2023 08:13

I see the US are sending their largest warship to help and support Israel.

OP posts:
hollyblueivy · 11/10/2023 08:18

The EU are suspending £655m aid to Palestinians in response to the Hamas attack.

I feel a little better about my ignorance in the sense that it is so complicated and other posters agree it is so complicated that it cannot be explained in a forum and even curriculum educators had to stop publishing books on it as they couldn't fairly explain it. I will take time to research further.

It's awful for humanity.

OP posts:
RufustheFactualReindeer · 11/10/2023 08:22

Has anyone got any book recommendations, its too little too late but I would like to be more educated on this subject

BurrosTail · 11/10/2023 08:25

A lot of “history” sites display Israel as the underdog in relation to previous wars with the surrounding Arab countries, and then create this narrative of survival as a country, which is also true, but these sites don’t give a full picture of the damage caused to Palestinians. On the other hand, a lot of pro-Palestine sites explain the decades-long landcrabbing and war crimes committed by Israel, mostly with impunity or without the international community doing anything about it. Palestinians have done a lot of rocket and suicide attacks which led to Israel build Irondome air defense system and a wall separating Palestine areas. The news now report on the largest terrorist attack since then, and Israel is likely to annihilate both Hamas and the civilians in the area.

hollyblueivy · 11/10/2023 08:28

If Israel do annihilate Hamas - will Iran and / or Russia become involved as I understand the money for Hamas comes from Iran?

I'll also have to research what interest Iran have in bankrolling Hamas.

OP posts:
ForFriends · 11/10/2023 09:01

scrantonelectriccity · 11/10/2023 07:55

Because where was the support for the Palestinians who have been dealing with this for years and years? Why are all these celebrities suddenly getting involved and speaking out now it's Israel under attack?

That's why people are unfollowing her

Palestinians have been raped and brutalised en masse, their babies beheaded by Israelis? I think not. So much ignorance and propaganda. The main problem Palestinians have now is Hamas. Hamas are not freedom fighters as some deluded Westerners may like to imagine, they're a fundamentalist Muslim terror group who terrorise their own people as well as Israelis. I mean, if Iran's government says they want to kiss the hands of Hamas terrorists for brutalising defenceless fellow humans? You are fraternising with the wrong kind.

There are many ethnic groups and people who live in desperate conditions and are suffering oppression around the world. Yet Western people don't wave their flags in solidarity or feel able to say that these oppressed people had to rape woman of all ages and behead babies including one that was cut out of the womb of a pregnant Israeli woman. I mean, these poor men, just had to torture, maim and rape, right? Did you see the video of the young woman who was in the back of a Hamas car, she was ordered to get out of the boot and into the back seat with lots of excited and important looking Hamas men. Her grey joggers were absolutely blood soaked on her bottom, I leave you to imagine what Hamas men did to her? Anyone supporting that kind of savagery has lost their humanity.

And before anyone says oh but what about those poor oppressed Palestinians? They are refusing to negotiate with Israel to find a solution that works instead preferring to to be governed by a brutal terror organisation full of blood thirty men who want all Israelis and Jews dead and Israel wiped off the map. Throwing missiles and rockets is entirely different to going round people's houses and destroying entire families one by one, slowly and deliberately at close range. It's also different to raping women and then parading these poor brutalised women naked in the streets for the enjoyment of fellow Palestinians, women and men and for the social media propaganda. Such worthy freedom fighters, right?

This is a historically extremely complex situation. In 1947 the United Nations adopted Resolution 181 that divided Great Britain's former Palestinian mandate into Jewish and Arab states in May 1948 when the British mandate ended.

I hope you know that one of the main reasons for establishing Israel is that the Jewish disapora was persecuted, abused, humiliated and killed over centuries, in fact of millennia around the world. This all culminated in the Holocaust and the torture, displacement and killing of 6 million Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. Also remember that Jews were persecuted not only in Nazi Germany in most other European countries throughout the middle ages and beyond. Have some understanding and empathy for the Jewish community, which is one of the most persecuted in the history of mankind.

So many people are, however, not able to empathise with the Jewish diaspora and the reason for this is anti semitism, which has existed in Europe and around the world eve since the Jews have been displaced from their homeland Judea, which happens to be in the same geographical region as Israel. People are full of anti semitism just as people have been throughout centuries, it really is nothing new sadly.

It is completely ok to be critical of what Israel's government do politically but before acting all passionate about it think carefully about how many other countries in recent and current times are doing things that are controversial and why you are not as indignant about that? In most cases it's because of unconscious bias and anti semitism. Once you see it, you can't un-see it.

noblegiraffe · 11/10/2023 09:40

If you are interested in a fuller historical discussion of the significance of Israel to the Jewish people going back to early biblical times up to the modern day, this is interesting https://bible.org/seriespage/1-new-state-israel

Obviously being a biblical website it's very one-sided, but it's clear that the creation of a Jewish state in the Middle East wasn't a random decision after WWII and the Holocaust but had been in progress well before then, and answers questions like 'why couldn't they create a Jewish state elsewhere?'

RandomButtons · 11/10/2023 10:14

hollyblueivy · 11/10/2023 08:00

I didn't realise how complicated the issue was when asking the question and wasn't sure if it would have been easier to sum up such as Russia originally having power over Ukraine, it being split and them wanting it back.

I know the Russia issue is also more complex than that but can be summed up for a top line insight.

Even that is a horrible simplification. Russia never had power over Ukraine. They both used to be part of the USSR. Not the same thing as Russia.

Bigbrotherpropoganda · 11/10/2023 14:06

The Independent gives a historical rundown.

hollyblueivy · 12/10/2023 13:39

Rory Stewart did a very good job of the intro to the rest is politics podcast.

I'm reading more and more. Very interesting, extremely complex. Impossible (for me) to determine some aspects of the history.

Just so difficult to comprehend this is going on in the same world that I live in right now.

OP posts:
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