Private schools and charity status

[The6thQueen]

Yes, another thread. But, maybe from a different angle?

I'm interested to know how many mumsnet readers know that most universities are charities or are charity exempt (including Oxford). That we don’t pay VAT on university fees, or services from healthcare providers (including non registered, if they are supervised by registered healthcare), including pharmacies and, that private healthcare suppliers fall under this exemption.

I’m raising as Labour’s altered plans with regard to charity status and taxes for private schools may be far more complicated than the public expects. Legalities and the far reaching impact the policies may have beyond education and its VAT exempt status.

I suppose my AIBU is that most of the general public don’t realise the use of charity status and VAT exemption and how removing them from the private education sector is not that simple.

@Knifeandforkwhocares - if you are genuinely a private school parent who does not mind the extra 20 per cent, how do you know the rest of the parents in your DC’s school can afford to pay up? How do you know your DC’s school won’t go bust struggle on when people leave?

Private schools are now pretty much a preserve for the rich.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-charts-that-shows-how-private-school-fees-have-exploded-a7023056.html

The link shows the difference between salary increases and private school fee increases. In the last 25 years, private school fees up 550%, inflation 200%.

This has forced teachers, normal lawyers, normal accountants etc out of private schools and they have become the preserve of the very financially successful.

And how did they go up so much? Educationally, they haven’t improved. Parents have welcomed all the frills, extra staff, wrap around care etc etc. I still do think that, for certain people, the more expensive, the more of a status symbol.

I won’t be convinced that VAT (probably 10% on fees after reclaiming, cost savings etc) will be a massive event, when 350% wasn’t…..

@Newbutoldfather exactly - these schools are businesses. Catering to the wealthy.
Therefore need to lose the false status of charity or being exempt from VAT.

This is a major reason I am consider prep school. I’m a single parent with very little support and a lawyer. The logistics of making that work around the state school wraparound are near impossible and will probably wreck my career.

The state school near me offers 30 places in after school club for 300 pupils. It only runs until 5. None on Fridays. Nothing in school holidays. What there is is just a few toys out in the village hall - no food or activities.

The prep school offer guaranteed space in wraparound care 7.30am to 6pm almost every day of the year. It’s high quality. They do interesting activities and are provided with hot meal.

I’m gambling on it enabling me to progress my career to the point where it’s actually affordable whilst not feeling too guilty about my children spending a lot of time in childcare.

If I was in a two parent family or had support from my ex I wouldn’t need it (though I do have hang ups about the state sector from my own terrible experience anyway).

I’m no sob story and I’m lucky to have options but I do feel resentful that I am trying so hard to maintain a career which enables me to support my children with no help from the state and the state (and specifically labour in this case) is so intent on making it more difficult. As a single parent I already pay far more tax than a two parent household on the same income and don’t get child benefit. And now paying for something which might actually enable me to be competitive against men with zero responsibilities at work is being taxed too.

@Circe7 - maybe email Angela Rayner with your specifics- [email protected]
At the moment the strong women we have in the Labour Party are not listening! That includes the Reeves sisters- they are pandering too much to male ideology. So email them all your thinking. You have written very well on here and she may at least think about it. You will probably get some rubbish back about them hoping to provide after school care in all state primaries… but I still think it is worth it.

Exactly

and jealousy tax ffs what a ridiculous comment

I doubt it will go under as it has a long waiting list. And all the other parents I know there have grandparents paying the fees. Inherited wealth. We’re the only people I know who pay themselves. As I say the sort of people who have the considerable money after tax spare to afford private school can pay VAT on it too.

Those who are saying that private school is not a luxury due to the fact that state schools are inadequate are missing the point. It’s a luxury to be able to choose where to send your child. That’s the luxury, not the education itself.

Ask someone who cannot afford a private education for their child if they think private education is a luxury.

You’re talking about one school. I, like many parents at my DC’s private school, pay school fees out of disposable income and have done so for 10 years. That disposable income has decreased significantly over the past 12 months so it’s not surprising that some parents are concerned about further rises.

Plenty of people in the state system “choose” where to send their child, for example by sitting the 11+ for grammar, moving house to be in the correct catchment, or attending church. Does that make their choice of school a luxurious one?

Yes, we did church school and grammar and it has been free and a good education. No complaints here about state education. We have 4DC all clever with no special needs and we supplemented ourselves when required. However, I am fully aware of our privilege.
Everyone with some money in my area either buys in catchment (often twice), prepares/tutors for grammar or pays for private school. The point I am trying to make is that plenty in the state category are richer than those paying privately and especially after they have ended up paying! I guess those moving twice pay stamp duty so fill government coffers somewhat. We know where everyone lives, size of houses/cars etc so it is very obvious that there is plenty of cash to be taxed in the privileged catchments. If taxing people with kids is what they want to do.

The local private school has a multi million pound deficit in the TPS pension scheme… tucked away in the financial notes.
So I think VAT on fees if it leads to parents/pupils leaving will result in them having to leave TPS. If private schools leave TPS en masse, what are the implications for Government coffers? If something like 1 in 7 teachers work in the private sector? So Government will have to self fund TPS more? They already have a recruitment crisis so I assume they will not change TPS. How much could this cost them?

I think the real question is about teachers and recruitment. Will teachers choose to stay in the private sector in a less stressful environment without the huge paperwork challenges and disruption etc and without TPS long term or will they leave? If they leave, will they go back into state education. Or tutor online? Set up their own tutoring businesses etc? Do something completely different.
And how will this all impact working women. The IFS report did touch on this.

I think the real question is about teachers and recruitment. Will teachers choose to stay in the private sector in a less stressful environment without the huge paperwork challenges and disruption etc and without TPS long term or will they leave? If they leave, will they go back into state education. Or tutor online? Set up their own tutoring businesses etc? Do something completely different.

This is already happening throughout both state and private schools. Teachers are leaving in droves. Hence the tutoring industry is expanding to compensate and is a great fit for the ex teachers. Where mothers switched to teaching to help fit around their work, they can now WFH, so teaching, with all its stress and disruption, seems like a bad career choice. Private school teachers are just not going to switch to state schools, unless the government sorts them out!

that leaves the same number of school children in total, both private and state, with insufficient teachers and the government playing politics.

Private school teachers are just not going to switch to state schools, unless the government sorts them out!

I work in an independent. I need to work. If my school were to close, I would go back to the state sector. Not sure how long I would last, but I would definitely give it a go. You can't speak for all private school teachers.

Labour are missing a trick.

Scrap the extensive powers of Ofsted. It should mainly be about safeguarding and reasonable Notice should be given! How is 2pm the day before reasonable notice? A head teacher literally committed suicide in Reading. Get rid of the sword of Damocles that is Ofsted and things will improve.

I have witnessed several Ofsted inspections in DCs schools now and the amount of stress and anxiety that goes into it years before it happens is ludicrous. Literally marking every scribble a 4 year old makes, not that a 4 year old looks at the markings much. Scrap paperwork pressures and let teachers actually teach. And fund SEN children. It is not rocket science.

We also desperately need 16 plus to be able to vote. With an ageing population the voter base priorities have changed and the status quo is now unbalanced so the politicians have to pander to the elderly and their priorities which in turn means our future will be bleaker. Or maybe give people with under 18s at home extra votes? Why don’t I get to vote on behalf of my under 18s and a 82 year old gets to vote? Not fair! Once I am old I am sure I will vote differently, but in the mean time, everyone in society deserves a vote (including on their behalf) so the policies are more balanced. I know it sounds like a crazy idea but with the way the population demographic is now skewed I think we do need changes.

@Baconisdelicious fair enough. I am on a few Facebook sites where teachers are looking for help getting out of teaching, so probably have a distorted view. I know my behaviour management skills and general tolerance of BS paperwork would drive me away, but for the sake of the children I hope there are more like you.

@Araminta1003 i have never reached the dizzy heights of SLT, so I can understand why ofsted don’t give notice…surely it’s because they need to see the school doing its everyday thing. If SLT have nothing to hide, why all the rehearsals and stress. It’s just play-acting last minute. As a hod I did nothing different at the run ups to ofsted, here is my dept, these are the kids, this is their homework. this is the school culture in all its honesty, pass or fail.