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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

duchiebun · 07/10/2023 21:38

Violence breeds violence, if you want to live peacefully don't colonise territories that don't belong to you

So no hope for the West then

PenelopeTheShroudWeaver · 07/10/2023 22:04

duchiebun · 07/10/2023 21:38

Violence breeds violence, if you want to live peacefully don't colonise territories that don't belong to you

So no hope for the West then

Probably not. The consequences of colonisation by the West are likely to be felt for many more years, unfortunately

LakeTiticaca · 07/10/2023 22:07

HermioneWeasley · 07/10/2023 19:51

That land was first settled by Jewish tribes. Who are you to say it rightfully belongs to Arab occupants who are “retaliating” by kidnapping elderly women and raping other women.

👏👏👏 the voice of reason
Hallelujah

pointythings · 07/10/2023 22:10

@Statice very well said. The Israelis didn't invade - but they were given their territories and the Arab people living there were given zero voice in that decision. And that was where it all went wrong.

DisappearingGirl · 07/10/2023 22:14

What Hamas is doing now is unacceptable.

What Israel has been doing to the Palestinian people for decades is equally unacceptable.

I agree with this. Also I don't think it's fair to call people antisemitic for not liking some of the actions of the Israeli government. That doesn't mean they have anything against Jewish people.

Original poster
Lovepeaceunderstanding · 07/10/2023 22:51

FromEden · 07/10/2023 20:48

Some of the videos I saw last night were horrific. The bodies of raped women being paraded on the back of trucks. Women and children being taken. Absolutely no justification for any of it. Could have just targeted the military if that's what it's about rather than raping women and killing kids. Barbaric

@FromEden , people will support it, it’s shocking.

OP posts:
duchiebun · 07/10/2023 22:56

I agree with this. Also I don't think it's fair to call people antisemitic for not liking some of the actions of the Israeli government

I thought the antisemitism is the fact people talk about the governments actions when the thread is about civilian deaths.

There was a number of threads about the Manchester Bombing, I don't remember any immediately highlighting the actions of the UK government. 🤷🏻‍♀️

IveHadItUpToHere · 07/10/2023 23:01

No idea why you would think AIBU is the right place for a discussion about this. It makes it seem like you want a goady thread on the back of a conflict. It's very disrespectful.

Original poster
Lovepeaceunderstanding · 08/10/2023 09:29

IveHadItUpToHere · 07/10/2023 23:01

No idea why you would think AIBU is the right place for a discussion about this. It makes it seem like you want a goady thread on the back of a conflict. It's very disrespectful.

@IveHadItUpToHere because I was curious how many people would (and would not) think it worthy of condemnation.

OP posts:
SomeCatFromJapan · 09/10/2023 09:47

if you want to live peacefully don't colonise territories that don't belong to you

Australia, New Zealand and the Americas as a whole are recent "conquered territories" among others.

Most places are if you go back far enough. England was conquered by the Normans.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/10/2023 11:21

I don't think it's fair to call people antisemitic for not liking some of the actions of the Israeli government. That doesn't mean they have anything against Jewish people

Quite right, @DisappearingGirl - after all countless jews have major issues with some of the Israeli government's actions, and with reason

However it's using this as a cover for antisemitism which causes problems, as when folk say they should get over the holocaust or that it's bigotry to even mention it on such threads
As I said on another thread, compare that to what would (rightly) happen if they said people of colour should get over slavery and what's actually going on becomes apparent

PenelopeTheShroudWeaver · 09/10/2023 11:26

SomeCatFromJapan · 09/10/2023 09:47

if you want to live peacefully don't colonise territories that don't belong to you

Australia, New Zealand and the Americas as a whole are recent "conquered territories" among others.

Most places are if you go back far enough. England was conquered by the Normans.

And if the Normans were still a political entity now, trying to conquer land, I would denounce their actions too. Would you not?

This isn't ancient history. It's happening right now. The fact that similar things happened in the past does not make it OK!

Brefugee · 09/10/2023 11:31

piintheski · 07/10/2023 19:23

Now maybe foreign governments will take Israel more seriously when Israel describes the level of threat they are under

I think it's more complicated than that, unfortunately.

What Hamas have launched here is terrorism on a grand scale. It is abhorrent and must stop. I am very clear about that: they are terrorists and what they are doing is evil. Unbelievably evil. My brain can't actually cope with it (and i retweet the Auschwitz Memorial posts just about every day so i am used to reading about abhorrent activities)

But Israel aren't just an innocent bystander here. They have ignored UN resolutions and Hamas feel backed into a corner (which does not excuse what they have done and are doing).

We need an immediate ceasefire, return of hostages and bodies and they need to come to the table and negotiate, once and for all, a solution that everyone can live with in that region. And they have to do this in the knowledge that they will all have to give things up.

Ifailed · 09/10/2023 11:35

That land was first settled by Jewish tribes.

There is no evidence to support that, human beings have lived in the area for 1.5 million years. We have no idea what religion(s), if any, they followed.

TheWayTheLightFalls · 09/10/2023 11:35

What @Statice wrote is helpful. I'd add, Hamas does not equal Palestinian - they are the de facto leadership and military arm - even though the latter will likely pay a heavy price just now.

Separately, if anyone has footage of Israelis or their military kidnapping pensioners in golf buggies or holding a 3 and 5 year old hostage (see news this morning), or strapping suicide vests to children for that matter, I'm here to see it. Launching rockets off the roofs of civilian buildings (thereby near-guaranteeing return fire) is another one. I think the current Israeli gov't is a steaming turd of leadership capacity but "Yeah but Israel" needs a lot more nuance.

ChesterDrawz · 09/10/2023 11:36

I am staggered - genuinely, not hyperbole - that 21% of MNers have said YABU when your proposition was that this deserves condemnation.

That anyone can think kidnapping grandmothers, children, other innocent members of the public, by a terrorist organisation is not worthy of condemnation is absolutely shameful.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/10/2023 11:40

If anyone has footage of Israelis or their military kidnapping pensioners in golf buggies or holding a 3 and 5 year old hostage (see news this morning), or strapping suicide vests to children for that matter, I'm here to see it. Launching rockets off the roofs of civilian buildings (thereby near-guaranteeing return fire) is another one

Add "testing nuclear weapons on women and children" to that, @TheWayTheLightFalls - that's another one which was touted last night, with queries following as to where it came from

No further information of course ...

pointythings · 09/10/2023 11:42

What Hamas are doing must be condemned.

If there is ever to be a permanent peaceful resolution, its context must also be acknowledged.

asterel · 09/10/2023 11:49

If, as is now looking very likely, this was orchestrated by Iran to derail efforts at stabilising the region, will all the pro-Hamas apologists feel a bit silly? Iran (and most of the surrounding Arab states) have zero interest in creating a free Palestinian state - they are trying to create more conflict in the region, not less. Iran is pretty certainly a nuclear state, with a stated desire to provoke the US into proxy conflicts, and it’s hardly some kind of beacon of liberal freedom.

This conflict is much more complex than the “Israelis are evil colonisers” are willing to learn. Many of the surrounding nations have little interest in the freedom and liberation of everyday people, and a lot of interest in creating political chaos. This is not freedom fighting but an orchestrated attempt to destabilise the region further.

MagpiePi · 09/10/2023 11:50

What the Hamas militants did is completely abhorrent and must rightly be condemened.

But, I agree with PP that this was not an unprovoked action if you consider the way that non-jewish Arabs have been treated since 1948. Sadly, it is now the Palestinian people who are gong to be bombed to fuck in retaliation, with the full support of the USA and many other countries.

Treaclewell · 09/10/2023 12:00

Members of Hamas are using the excuse of Israel's existence to do things they want to, and would do if the situation did not exist. Men's violence against women, old and young, and children. Don't see them taking on the IDF. How we deal with them is difficult.
And the Jewish tribes did not settle an unoccupied land. They went in and took other people's property and recorded it all in their scriptures. But that doesn't excuse recent evictions. Whose land it was at what dates, is, isn't relevant, and whether God told them to do it isn't either. Judaism teaches treating the stranger with respect, and they aren't.
For instance, they extract water from the acquifer which also feeds the Palestinian wells, which because of the falling levels are no longer deep enough. And they pass a law which makes it illegal for Palestinians to deepen their wells.

Treaclewell · 09/10/2023 12:02

And I weep with my Jewish friend for the horrors unleashed by evil men.

Ifailed · 09/10/2023 12:02

I condemn Hamas' current activity without bring up any whataboutery.

These discussions never get far because as soon as anyone criticises the Israeli State accusations of anti-Semitism start flying.

ChesterDrawz · 09/10/2023 12:03

The whataboutery on here is incredible.

So many terrorist Islamist apologist MNers who just can't bring themselves to just condemn the kidnap of innocent people - elderly and young alike - without adding 'but the terrorists were provoked'.

FFS.

I'm not surprised MN keep deleting threads on this subject. It must be mightily embarrassing for them as a left-leaning forum to be once again perpetuating the anti-Semitic narrative that Labour regularly finds itself wrapped up in and having to try to reverse back from.

asterel · 09/10/2023 12:03

MagpiePi · 09/10/2023 11:50

What the Hamas militants did is completely abhorrent and must rightly be condemened.

But, I agree with PP that this was not an unprovoked action if you consider the way that non-jewish Arabs have been treated since 1948. Sadly, it is now the Palestinian people who are gong to be bombed to fuck in retaliation, with the full support of the USA and many other countries.

Are you also taking into account here that the Arab League and the surrounding Arab states also deliberately created and maintained the situation in order to further their own interests? The entire issue is so complex precisely because “many other countries” have a vested interest in Hamas, and not for reasons of freedom at all. Why don’t you look up the role of Egypt and Jordan in the history of the conflict, for example?