Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Earnings vs cost of living

11 replies

lavender2023 · 03/10/2023 15:32

I have a friend who is very thrifty and prides himself on doing everything very cheaply, living in a cheap part of the country and therefore earning an average wage (public sector). He told me today that he thinks my DH (who is on £75k and co-owns a flat with me which he bought for £392k; i earn £45k) would be much worse off financially than a mutual single friend of ours (Friend A) who is on £23k and bought a £112k flat because his mortgage is peanuts compared to ours. I pointed out that actually when you compare the income ratios of our flat vs that friend's flat - our flat is around 5.2 times DH's income vs the 112k flat is 4.8 times the 23k salary. So its not huge difference and despite higher rate tax, i think it does kind of even out/doesn't make a huge difference.

But he claims that Friend A is much better off because our £392k flat is so expensive that it is no longer about income multiples at all. But i thought the way you calculate affordability is based on income multiples! And that Friend A would feel rich in 10 years time because his mortgage is so low. I then said that this doesn't make much sense; is he trying to say that someone on £200k who happened to buy a £1 million house would be much worse off than our friend on £23k (not saying that the £1 million house is necessary but surely someone on £200k would be able to build a rainy day fund). of course taxes are high, but we are in the same country, UK and many of the essentials, gas and council tax and groceries/buying clothes online don't differ much across the country. And my friend said it is not sustainable as a £200k salary is difficult to get and this hypothetical person would be in trouble if he lost his job while Friend A can just take any old minimum wage job.

I dont really feel offended by this, but I feel like this doesn't make sense to me. Aren't most people in poverty/struggling on minimum wage (or even above that) and I am sure a sizeable percentage of them are homeowners with a tiny mortgage. Not all of them probably have dependents either. On the other hand, I have never heard of someone formerly on £200k on the breadline (in London or otherwise)!

OP posts:
ShellySarah · 03/10/2023 15:34

I don't get it? Tell him to mind his own business. I have no idea what my friends mortgages are compared to their earnings. Its a bit weird you know all this detail about each other.

ScroogeMcDuckling · 03/10/2023 15:35

When you pay off your flat, and move to his part of town - who will be richer?

NotSuchASmugMarried · 03/10/2023 15:36

What is your AIBU?

And yes, thats a HUGE amount of information to know about a friend. Just purely out of interest, when was the last time you took this friend out for a pint/coffee?

lavender2023 · 03/10/2023 15:37

ShellySarah · 03/10/2023 15:34

I don't get it? Tell him to mind his own business. I have no idea what my friends mortgages are compared to their earnings. Its a bit weird you know all this detail about each other.

we discuss quite a lot of politics and a key aspect of course is cost of living vs salaries/taxes. anyway it s not really about whether its my business or his business, its about what makes sense.

Maybe i should have just said Person A and Person B to make this clear rather than DH vs Friend A.

OP posts:
lavender2023 · 03/10/2023 15:38

NotSuchASmugMarried · 03/10/2023 15:36

What is your AIBU?

And yes, thats a HUGE amount of information to know about a friend. Just purely out of interest, when was the last time you took this friend out for a pint/coffee?

Edited

Maybe I should just have put Person A vs Person B.

OP posts:
VeterinaryCareAssistant · 03/10/2023 15:41

I think if I had a large income I'd want a small mortgage and property so I'd have more disposable income to spend on things I enjoy, rather than a large mortgage and a large house.

lavender2023 · 03/10/2023 15:42

ShellySarah · 03/10/2023 15:34

I don't get it? Tell him to mind his own business. I have no idea what my friends mortgages are compared to their earnings. Its a bit weird you know all this detail about each other.

itws not mortgage vs earnings. its house price vs earnings. Mortgages have been in the news lately as well as increase in minimum wage (which had the effect in pushing up salaries a lot), hence why it was discussed.

Also people love telling Londoners about how little they spent on their property so I know how much people outside London spend! I never know how much people in London spend on the other hand!

OP posts:
Clarabeans · 03/10/2023 15:44

Your logic is right in terms of income and house price ratio but generally life is much more expensive since living as a single person. Most bills don’t reduce by 50% as a single person. Presuming your DH lives with you and you split bills.

PestilencialCrisis · 03/10/2023 15:54

If in both scenarios each person is spending the same percentage of their income on the mortgage, then the one with the higher income is better off. For argument's sake, let's say that both spend 40% of income on mortgage, and whatever is left is for living - 60% of £75k is higher than 60% of £23k.

That said, people live up to their income, so your DH might be spending more of his leftovers on expensive hobbies or luxury holidays whereas your friend might be saving every spare penny. It is possible for people on high incomes to overspend, so your DH might have huge debts that your friend wouldn't even consider taking on.

Linning · 03/10/2023 21:55

You obviously are right in that overall someone earning 200k will (almost always) be better off than someone on 23k even if one has a much higher mortgage than the other, but I can also understand the point your friend is trying to make as I kind of apply a similar (faillible) logic to your friend when it comes to your other friend with the cheaper flat, due to my own observations.

I’ll give you my own example:

I am a fairly high earner (my income varies month to month but overall I do earn a decent amount) and could have likely gotten a fairly consequent mortgage on a high-ish priced property, instead, I made the choice to be mortage free and buy a property that was extremely cheap in a country that’s cheaper than the UK. And yet, even if I had had a mortgage I would have picked a mortgage that wasn’t based on my current income, and would be easily paid off while on minimum wage as a single income earner (I am from a poor background so not overspending is very deep in my DNA at this point I think.)

My logic was similar to the one of your friend. Tomorrow I can get ill (I bought alone) and lose the majority of my income, which would make any high mortgage repayment, impossible to pay before running through savings, and then what? I would lose my savings + eventually the house and go back into renting, losing everything I worked for just because I wanted a mortgage that was 100% dependent on earning well or on bringing in two incomes (for couples who buy together)? That honestly seemed scary to me, and didn’t seem worth it, when I could either have a low mortgage or (in my case) no mortgage.

Also, another of my thought is that past a certain point houses simply don’t bring up enough things for their value. Again could be coming from a poor background but there is nothing a house could bring that would make me not regret to spend a million or even 800k on it. Just none (and I say this as someone who stays very regularly in multi-millions and billionaires houses and do see how pleasant and they are and all the things they have that are undoubtedly nice.) I can see how a billionaire won’t care spending a couple million on a house cash but personally getting a one million mortgage makes me shudder, especially as most 1 million houses or flats in cities like London really aren’t coming with anything special. When you could have a villa with a pool and very nice facilities for less than half the price a bit further out.

For example, I would have had to spend so much more money for the teensiest flat in London Zone 1, and would have had to spend likely a million more to get anything comparable to what I have actually bought (I have a 3 double bedroom home with 2 indoor patios and private parking in very proximity to the beach in a country that’s sunny most of the year).

So my basis of who’s better off isn’t just based on cost vs earning it’s a lot more «what are you actually getting for your money » and also « how deeply in the shit will you be if you get a chronic illness and need a career change/have a break up in relationship and can only rely on your sole income ». Your friend is right in that sense that someone who can repay their mortgage on minimum wage and on their sole salary has technically a much bigger safety net (and also have a much bigger shot at positively increasing her situation as she is more likely to find a better paid job in the future (furthering the gap between earnings vs mortgage) or to find a partner and split bills (again doing the same). If, on top of that your friend has a bigger flat for a lot less money or even a similar sized one for less money or for a better location (central London is obviously appealing to people needing to live there for work but I would say living close to a beach or having a beautiful landscape view and big garden would beat living in a random central London flat with little charm in terms of quality of life). I would say that yes, friend who earns a lot less and have a lower value property is better off, but that’s because I personally put more value on what one get for their money (in terms of quality and prestations vs price) over what one own financially.

But again, it’s more of a biased opinion than a logical one and it’s more because as a higher earner now I am extremely aware of how easy it is to stretch your finances or extend them in a way that are comfortable while you earn such amounts but are 100% reliant on an high income to be sustainable in any way long-term, which to me seems precarious (in a world where AI is becoming more and more efficient and most jobs more and more precarious/replaceable). I therefore find people who can “easily” afford their lifestyle on a low wage in a lot better position than people who earn a lot but are dependent on a bunch of factors lining up to be able to sustain their lifestyle; so I understand your friend’s logic; whether that’s actually logical or not.

lavender2023 · 03/10/2023 23:21

Linning · 03/10/2023 21:55

You obviously are right in that overall someone earning 200k will (almost always) be better off than someone on 23k even if one has a much higher mortgage than the other, but I can also understand the point your friend is trying to make as I kind of apply a similar (faillible) logic to your friend when it comes to your other friend with the cheaper flat, due to my own observations.

I’ll give you my own example:

I am a fairly high earner (my income varies month to month but overall I do earn a decent amount) and could have likely gotten a fairly consequent mortgage on a high-ish priced property, instead, I made the choice to be mortage free and buy a property that was extremely cheap in a country that’s cheaper than the UK. And yet, even if I had had a mortgage I would have picked a mortgage that wasn’t based on my current income, and would be easily paid off while on minimum wage as a single income earner (I am from a poor background so not overspending is very deep in my DNA at this point I think.)

My logic was similar to the one of your friend. Tomorrow I can get ill (I bought alone) and lose the majority of my income, which would make any high mortgage repayment, impossible to pay before running through savings, and then what? I would lose my savings + eventually the house and go back into renting, losing everything I worked for just because I wanted a mortgage that was 100% dependent on earning well or on bringing in two incomes (for couples who buy together)? That honestly seemed scary to me, and didn’t seem worth it, when I could either have a low mortgage or (in my case) no mortgage.

Also, another of my thought is that past a certain point houses simply don’t bring up enough things for their value. Again could be coming from a poor background but there is nothing a house could bring that would make me not regret to spend a million or even 800k on it. Just none (and I say this as someone who stays very regularly in multi-millions and billionaires houses and do see how pleasant and they are and all the things they have that are undoubtedly nice.) I can see how a billionaire won’t care spending a couple million on a house cash but personally getting a one million mortgage makes me shudder, especially as most 1 million houses or flats in cities like London really aren’t coming with anything special. When you could have a villa with a pool and very nice facilities for less than half the price a bit further out.

For example, I would have had to spend so much more money for the teensiest flat in London Zone 1, and would have had to spend likely a million more to get anything comparable to what I have actually bought (I have a 3 double bedroom home with 2 indoor patios and private parking in very proximity to the beach in a country that’s sunny most of the year).

So my basis of who’s better off isn’t just based on cost vs earning it’s a lot more «what are you actually getting for your money » and also « how deeply in the shit will you be if you get a chronic illness and need a career change/have a break up in relationship and can only rely on your sole income ». Your friend is right in that sense that someone who can repay their mortgage on minimum wage and on their sole salary has technically a much bigger safety net (and also have a much bigger shot at positively increasing her situation as she is more likely to find a better paid job in the future (furthering the gap between earnings vs mortgage) or to find a partner and split bills (again doing the same). If, on top of that your friend has a bigger flat for a lot less money or even a similar sized one for less money or for a better location (central London is obviously appealing to people needing to live there for work but I would say living close to a beach or having a beautiful landscape view and big garden would beat living in a random central London flat with little charm in terms of quality of life). I would say that yes, friend who earns a lot less and have a lower value property is better off, but that’s because I personally put more value on what one get for their money (in terms of quality and prestations vs price) over what one own financially.

But again, it’s more of a biased opinion than a logical one and it’s more because as a higher earner now I am extremely aware of how easy it is to stretch your finances or extend them in a way that are comfortable while you earn such amounts but are 100% reliant on an high income to be sustainable in any way long-term, which to me seems precarious (in a world where AI is becoming more and more efficient and most jobs more and more precarious/replaceable). I therefore find people who can “easily” afford their lifestyle on a low wage in a lot better position than people who earn a lot but are dependent on a bunch of factors lining up to be able to sustain their lifestyle; so I understand your friend’s logic; whether that’s actually logical or not.

Edited

It's interesting cos for me, living in London is quality of life. I live near very lovely woods and yet i can jump on a tube to go to central London in 20 minutes. My DH cycles to work. We don't need a car. My friend is a non driver so he probably knows better than me that London public transport is the best in the country

The thing that also tips in the balance is the political situation. The UK is almost always under a Tory government. The NHS is underfunded..we have no idea how long that would last. Ditto with state pensions. Someone on £23k could be mortgage free but could that income stretch to covering private health insurance or a decent private pension. Someone on £200k has the option of doing that and the house could be sold at a stage to supplement that if needed. If you look up minimum income calculator, the current calculator is that even without mortgage or rent, the minimum income for a decent standard of living outside London is £19k for a single...

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread