Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flip

1 2

Original poster

Consent and evolution

26 replies

bellav · 30/09/2023 08:58

Last night, I was having a conversation with DH and a male friend. We were talking about sex education.

Male friend has an 11yo son, and said how he thinks it's important to talk about consent with him. BUT that it's difficult as there are thousands of years of evolution to take into account. He quickly clarified that he was not excusing males not asking for consent, but then said again that you need to factor in biology.

To which my husband agreed and said "If you ignore biology then you're ignoring half of the problem." It felt a bit like they were excusing men not being able to control themselves and it didn't sit right.

We got interrupted by kids at that point and didn't return to the conversation, but it's still playing on my mind. AIBU?

OP posts:

Ididivfama · 30/09/2023 09:00

Men have consented throughout history. Some do and some don’t. It’s the same in a lot of the animal kingdom. It’s pretty easy to understand. Porn makes it worse.

Biology includes everything.

Ididivfama · 30/09/2023 09:01

And yes it would’ve made me uncomfortable too as it’s like saying you naturally wouldn’t.

The same as saying you’d naturally always steal or kill someone who upset you. Humans are more evolved than people give them credit for.

MyWeekendSucked · 30/09/2023 09:01

’Not excusing’, while his excusing.
This is a ’nice guy’ 101.
They’re both rape apologists.
Sorry you married one, can’t feel good.

BibbleandSqwauk · 30/09/2023 09:01

I'd want clarification on that PDQ!! What the hell? Most of the sex ed I teach at school now is more about consent, informed consent, enthusiastic rather than passive participation, and how to give and receive clear signals. No one is talking about neanderthal urges that have to be factored in!

BandicootCrash · 30/09/2023 09:02

When I was a teenager, and I pretty much believed this bullshit, I remember hearing venessa feltz of all people saying "if he says he can't stop, that's just nonsense. If his mum walked in the room he'd be able to stop pretty damn quick!" That's always stuck with me.

DustyLee123 · 30/09/2023 09:02

I was watching a guy on TikTok, he’s an ex porn star, and he’s going on about how women like men to dominate them, pull their hair etc. And I’m thinking, no wonder men are ending up with assault complaints.
This guy needs to use his platform to discuss consent and trust, not grabbing girls by the throat and having them up against a wall.

Cotswoldmama · 30/09/2023 09:03

That wouldn't sit right with me either, sounds like they're excusing people who don't have consent, it's sounds like they are saying men have no control over their urges. Giving rapists an excuse for their behaviour!

GabriellaMontez · 30/09/2023 09:03

I'd like to know exactly what they meant...

Presumably we could apply this thinking to all kinds of things?

IslaWinds · 30/09/2023 09:03

It is a bit odd, but my immediate thought wasn’t excusing men for not being able to control themselves so they rape.

My immediate thought was that they were talking in the context of an 11yr old more along the (biological) lines of the raging hormones and risk taking behaviours that he will get as all teenagers get that affect their ability to judge when to say no to sex.

HappiestSleeping · 30/09/2023 09:05

BandicootCrash · 30/09/2023 09:02

This 👆

More so if her dad walked in.

Diddleflop · 30/09/2023 09:06

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

BertieBotts · 30/09/2023 09:10

Does he mean that in the moment boys are overcome by desire and can't help themselves? It's true that social inhibitions are less strongly felt when someone is aroused, but if he's paying attention to consent well before he's in that situation, then no problem. Just don't get into bed/get naked with someone unless you're 100% sure they're enthusiastically consenting! That part isn't hard at all. The point at which social inhibition is getting overridden has so many steps that happen before it where it's not overridden at all and you can use your logical brain.

Also, if it was that strong then nobody would ever use condoms, or any other form of contraception that has to be used at the point of intercourse. It's true that condoms are one of the less reliable forms of contraception, probably for this reason, but they do work reasonably well, even if you look at average use rather than perfect use. So clearly most people have control over their urges most of the time.

Yes biology should be discussed. But men, even young men, are not slaves to biology. Desire doesn't have to be acted upon. It's just a myth that excuses rapists. Talk about the importance of communication with a partner, it's not just about consent either, you're not going to be any good in bed if you're not listening and responding to your partner.

JackRosenberg · 30/09/2023 09:14

Were they talking about asking for consent or ignoring being told no? It's two quite different things I think. The latter is obviously inexcusable, but the former is frought with complexity and nuance, especially for teenagers. Maybe clarify what was actually being discussed here?

Didimum · 30/09/2023 09:14

Even if ‘evolution’ were an excuse, by the (I’m assuming) knowledge of these two men, it’s a bullshit excuse. Atomically modern humans date back to circa 200,000-300,000 years ago - everything since, including behaviour is societal. Especially if they are going to bring ‘biology’ into the argument. Our ancestors having dominated the fields of hunting and gathering did not necessarily mean they were sexual deviants without the empathy to control themselves - and unless they can pinpoint the time in history or pre-history that men widely started to rape, then any evolution argument is bullshit.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 30/09/2023 09:17

Yeah, your husband is a rape apologist.

Againstthegrain · 30/09/2023 09:41

They have a point

At the end of the day the reason why it’s mostly men who commit violent and sexual crime and not women is partially due to biology. It’s not that women are born better than men.

It’s an uncomfortable fact - and not one that absolves men of responsibility at all, but perhaps should not be discredited because it’s unpalatable.

Alluding to biology trumping consent is obviously bullshit but I’m not sure feeling revulsion at the notion of biology playing a part in the reasons for the difference in crime statistics between the sexes is helpful either.

GabriellaMontez · 30/09/2023 09:45

Is it? How do you know this?

And what part of 'biology' do you mean? That they're stronger?

Original poster

bellav · 30/09/2023 11:25

I am sure my husband would be horrified to be called a rape apologist. I think he was just trying to say something along the lines of what @Againstthegrain said. That men's sexual urges are stronger than women's. But not that they should ever be used as an excuse.

OP posts:

Tumbleweed101 · 30/09/2023 11:41

I think I kind of get what might have been meant. If you watch wildlife programmes you often see examples of perhaps a less strong male deer taking advantage of a dominant males lapse in observation to quickly nip in and try and get the female pregnant.

Males tend to be biologically more opportunistic than females who tend to be more picky about their partner. And for good reason, female mammals have to go through the pregnancy and rear the offspring so they need to make sure the hard work is worth the effort. The males can make them pregnant without consequence.

Obviously in pretty much all species there is the 'right way' and the 'shady way' of getting what you want. I think females also hedge their bets and can cuckoo their partners if they think a different male is a good option.

There is no excuse for human males to give into these biological reasons though, we are aware enough as a species of the consequences of doing so.

MagpiePi · 30/09/2023 11:58

…That men's sexual urges are stronger than women's.

Really??!

I think what you mean is ‘men are STRONGER than women and can force a woman into sex’

We all have really strong urges, - to call your boss fucking wanker, to stuff that slice of cake into your mouth straight off the cafe counter, to slap a child who has pushed one too many buttons, but we can resist those urges because of societal pressures and conditions, and because we can think about the consequences.

Men having uncontrollable urges is just an excuse.

Bananazebra · 30/09/2023 14:04

It's in our biology to pair bond. Sara Pascoe has written about it in her book Animal. Carrying, birthing and raising a human child is hard work so we are biologically predisposed to fall in love and form partnerships because successful procreation is so much easier in a partnership. So biology is no excuse for rape because it doesn't help pair bonding. If rape was the biological 'norm' then there would be a bigger size difference between men and women.
Sara Pascoe puts it better than me if anyone is interested.

abominablesnowman · 30/09/2023 14:31

One of the main things that separates us from animals is our ability to make rational and fair decisions rather than giving in to natural instinct.
Yes, biologically, men will have a great sexual desire, but they also have a human brain that allows them to know when it's appropriate to act on it.

Pretty disgusting to pretend that they're just animals who can't control themselves.

Sleepeye · 17/09/2025 14:05

" It felt a bit like they were excusing men not being able to control themselves and it didn't sit right.

it didn’t “sit right” because that is precisely what your husband was doing OP. I’d be concerned

Sleepeye · 17/09/2025 14:06

Oh sorry this came up on my actives!!! Didn’t realise zombie

AprilShowers25 · 17/09/2025 14:26

I can see this is a zombie but it is actually an interesting topic.

There is something in male’s biology in addition to socialisation that makes them behave with more aggression and have different attributes to females for example a propensity for risky behaviour.

It is not excusing their behaviour at all, it makes it even more terrifying for us women the fact that men can choose to act a certain way but also that a lot of them can hurt us because they have lost control and cannot think rationally.

if you think about men who have randomly attacked, raped and killed women, something has overruled their rational brain which should be telling them ‘I have the urge to do this horrific thing but I shouldn’t because I will be caught and my life will be ruined’.

Flip

1 2