School refusing to provide translator

[CapturedLeprechaun]

I'm on the Governing body for a school with a really high proportion of kids with English as a second language. It's over 80% of their pupils. Many of the parents speak little or no English at all. There are some families who have been here 5+ years where one or both parents speak no English at all still, and even a "your child has no PE kit, they need to wear their PE kit on Mondays and Wednesdays" wouldn't be understood.

The school always use translators for meetings with parents - either a staff member who speaks that language who is available, or else they have a telephone translator service that they pay for, so the phone is on loudspeaker and a translator translates the conversation.

This is done for all parents evenings/ attendance meetings/ SENCO meetings etc for parents who don't speak or understand English.

Important letters like school trips/consent forms are provided translated in the three most common languages spoken.

The school offers English classes to parents, one held in the school one morning a week in the hall, one held in the evening each week.

School has now said translators will only be provided to parents whose children have been at the school for less than a year. If your child has been at the school for more than a year and you are unable to understand English, no translator will be provided, due to staff shortages and costs, and you have to bring a friend/family member who can translate. Letters will only be provided in English, and parents can use the translate feature on google if they need to.

On the face of this, does this seem a reasonable decision? The head has announced this and I don't know why it doesn't sit right with me, and I can't really articulate why. It has a lot of support from the English speaking parents, but it feels... divisive, I guess? And most likely children who will suffer. Currently trying to weigh up whether this is something I should raise, or accept this is a reasonable step for the school to take.

I think this is a terrible mistake @CapturedLeprechaun . People on this thread ignorantly say live in England- speak English.

Does this rational extend to the white immigrants expats living in Spain or around the world?
I used to live in Singapore and not a single solitary white (UK mainly) immigrant expat spoke Singaporean mandarin, Malay, Tamil or Cantonese. The country adapts to that.
The kids learn the languages of the nation they school in and the parents make friends with other immigrants so that in their local communities they only have to speak English.

Removing the translation services are just another example of creating a hostile environment for non English speakers.

Before anyone asks - I don't know what I'd cut in response. I would speak to the parents to understand what the school could do differently to support their needs and I'd inform LA of the challenge. For me supporting families to integrate into school communities has the same importance as offering a PP or SEND provision. These are all things that ultimately benefit the children and society as a whole because they lead to developing individuals who can wholly contribute to society.

Sending letters out in a few main languages doesn’t sound hard or expensive so I think I would say not doing that is a bit unreasonable. I take the point that all the other stuff is expensive but in reality, who suffers if it stops? It’s always the kids and it’s not their fault. Out of interest dues the government provide extra funding on the basis of the % of kids with English as a 2nd language?

I would learn the language of any country I move too but isn't English an official language in Singapore?

In your situation, I would being this up as an EDI issue. Whatever the ins and outs of speaking English in certain households may be, this action isn't aiding in any of the areas this covers and possibly disadvantaging children who are already likely to be disadvantaged in other ways (if they are receiving pupil premium, FSM etc, it is likely that they may be experiencing poverty related issues at home, e.g. overcrowding etc).

I am not English but lived here a long time. I think this is the right move. Giving support initially.

I want to live in another country in the next few years so am slowly learning it.

I really dislike when people say ‘the interests of the child should be put first’ as the reason schools should continue to fund something or take the responsibility for something AND absolve the parents of the responsibility.

If it’s better for the children to speak the language of the country they are in and they won’t learn it, we should be asking why they won’t act in the best interests of their child. If they prevent the other parent learning, we should be questioning why they don’t act in the best interests of their child.

I don’t get the thinking that excuses parents from putting their kids needs first.

and yes, I think the same of people who speak English, move abroad and don’t learn the language at the detriment of their children.

The people who have sustain for English people who go abroad and don’t learn the language, but have ever excuse for people moving to English speaking countries and not learning the language make no sense. Why the distain for one group and not another?

How many countries provide long term translators for English people who don’t speak a local language?

@TrudyProud Terrible example considering Singapore has 4 offical languages and English is one of them. Very judgemental of you.

I agree with you OP that some of the decisions here seem a bit punitive (ie the letters) rather than genuine cost-cutting measures. I also live in an area, not UK, with a lot of non-English speakers moving in and it is to everyone's benefit that they get as much support as they need. With budgets being stretched I understand it can't be infinite, but surely they can stretch to two years instead of one.

I would say letters must be translated at a minimum.

I like to flip things the other way.

If I was living in a country that didn't speak English, I wouldn't expect school to provide an interpreter for my children.

It's good that they are still providing one for the first year.

I guess given the UK's colonial past it's not surprising that we are more accommodating to people not knowing the language of the country than e.g. Germany, where I live. I've read that we have 2m refugees here. I don't think I've ever seen mention of a translation service for anything, school, doctor, nothing. There is a Ukrainian kid in my kids' class at school, IDK if he's a Russian speaker or if he just knows some Russian but how he got his translation in the early days was, they sat a Russian speaking kid next to him. He has AFAIK a couple of hours of German a week along with a bunch of other kids - my own kids, for whom German is most definitely the second language, have had zero extra tuition in school, which is the case for most kids here with "immigration background". They just make them get on with it.

It will be very expensive (or demanding on the teachers/staff”s time) if all letters are translated and translaters present at all meetings. Providing the service to those in their first year in the country seems very good to me, more than most schools would do. In my daughter’s school where there are always some newcomers with limited English emphasid is put on giving instructions to the children on things like PE kit and school trips so they are also aware of what is required. That wont work so well in reception but by about year 2 many children can start to take in and remember these intructions (and pass them on to parents). I think your school is doing a lot to help newcomers adjust to the language and providing translation services plus language lessons for the first year is still generous. The parents need to make an effort instead of draining the resources meant for their childrens” education.

I’ve not read very page, but one thing to be clear for people- in London (I presume I have an idea in which bit the school is) there is basically a functioning non english community. Street signs in two languages, all NHS, shops and markets not in English or an English style of goods even. Council letters in two languages, posts usually held by community language speakers. Many family members arrive at marriage age without English. Females largely to stay at home and mix with others in the community. Men often can work in businesses.
It’s not like moving to middle England and not learning the language, it’s the dominant language and community in a part of London.
Whilst I’m not the same community, nor one as big, I have family members here 10-15 and who don’t speak English. They thought I must admit keep the dream of going home and building there. They work in jobs with whole teams speaking the language, socialise well speaking the language, have churches etc. It’s easily done in London on a work visa!

I can see why it might be on the list of options until you get to the part where the school is given extra money to cope with the difficulties of such issues. They are literally given the money to pay for this.

Realistically, I just don't think it is going to be workable. There is a risk here surely. What about emergency situations? There needs to be a probe all through of scenarios to check this.

Ultimately the children will suffer, eg their attendance to school trips, parents attending parties evening etc

But it shouldn’t easily be done on a work visa as work visas require assessment of reading, writing, understanding & speaking, and partner/ILR visas require a test of understanding and speaking. Only refugees should arrive with no working English.

There is however a whole other issue of English test fraud in a number of countries.

Funding has been cut in all sectors of education. This means a lot of ESOL classes have also been cut meaning there is little or no provision for English classes for adults.
Many immigrants and especially refugees may also be illiterate in their own language, or have others barriers to learning (disrupted education due to war/civil conflict/ cultural expectations etc) which prevents them from making progress in English.
Apps can help but do not capture the nuances of language often seen in official communication. What a native English speaker can understand, a non native often has difficulties with, eg...PE Kit...what is PE? What is 'kit'?

The solution would be to do what a lot of government agencies do and have the most important information available in the main languages needed in that area, a translator available for parent teacher meetings (often there are voluntary organisations/ community groups that could do this, and actually use the parents and children that do have a decent grasp of English to help.

What a ridiculous waste of money when there is no money to waste.

I feel for the kids but learning the language if the country you are living in should really be a personal priority, not a state one.

Wow, absolutely disgusting that people move to a country and accept free education and healthcare and presumably other benefits and don't learn the language.

The UK is absolutely mad to pay for this.

If the school has translated letters in one language then should send them to anyone who needs them regardless of time spent at the school. It would seem a waste of money in a way as once it’s been translated - they are just sending copies?

I work in a secondary in Ireland and we don't do any translation. The assumption is that parents will take responsibility for translation/learning the language.

Sounds like the school are already making the effort. The parents need to do their bit as well. I support the school on this.

after 1yr you will not be given a translated letter, you will need to do it yourself

This, I would absolutely be challenging, especially as letters will (or at least should) be standardised and thus just a case of attaching the translated version along with the written English one.

The head is being incredibly arrogant to not allow this. Having written English skills is vastly different from expecting parents to get by face to face after a year… which in itself is not long.

I live in France and can confirm I've never been offered a translation service for anything at school. Many people I know have moved here with little or no French (we're all ex-pat through work) and I've often had to translate things for them, and offered to attend meetings to translate.

We moved to another country a few years ago. The language was a 'hard' one (a dialect version of a language already thought to be difficult to learn). After a year I could basically greet people and do some shopping. I couldn't really read it at all. Learning to a level of fluency you could deal with school etc would take a lot longer than that. And not one evening class a week! Which is great to have but takes a long time.

As a pp said, if this is where I think it is in London then there's a bilingual culture anyway. Kids of parents who don't speak English are disadvantaged in loads of ways already, not least by having to deal with more adult topics than they are ready for. I take it it's a maintained school OP? If so then a Structured conversation needs to happen with the LA on provision for the parents. What do other schools do in the area? How will they make sure parents understand key info?

I think some sort of middle ground- e.g. translation of the handbook, those standard issue attendance letters and probably the curriculum evenings, plus community support for key meetings would be ok, but the answer shouldn't just be 'the kids will do it'. It's not the kids' fault.

Attendance is likely to be a DFE thing. Is the absence rate high due to extended holidays back home? They could consider a different term structure (longer easter and shorter summer works well if it's the community I'm thinking of) to help with this.

I disagree with the majority here, I don’t think that this is reasonable.

And although so many people here are saying they would learn the language, the world is full of brits who don’t speak the language of the country they live in. It’s just we call them expats instead of immigrants, and local people do speak English to them.

I think that it is reasonable to send the letters only in English. It’s easier to translate slowly when something is written, easier to work out mistakes in translation apps, and most households will have a child who reads English and speaks the home language fluently.

I think that the school should still have a translation option for in person meetings for non English speakers. My suggestion would be to move away from in person translation and just use the phone line option which will be cheaper. I do think that there is a safeguarding concern having child translators translating at their own parents evenings etc which is what will end up happening.

If I was the head I would also be trying to ensure that a decent proportion of my staff came from the surrounding community- especially receptionists etc - so that there was someone around who could provide ad hoc language support.

Oh and I’ve lived in a few countries abroad. Far easier for me to learn though. I was already very fluent in one of the languages and am degree educated. By the end of 4 years in another I was pretty fluent but had spent many mornings in language classes (the pace was painfully slow as some people had very little education so it was geared for this).

In a third, I spent 18 months and didn’t learn much tbh. My mind was on other things - rather like a lot of economic migrants and refugees - and I already could speak the official language of the country, just not the one in my immediate vicinity. I could get by just fine.

I can totally understand people not learning and had I lived in the last country longer, I possibly still wouldn’t have done so. Once you have kids, there isn’t so much time etc.