AIBU asking for payment for a job?

[TFan]

My youngest daughter (16) is a very talented artist. She recently posted some sketch pics to Facebook and my mum saw them and asked her to do a large picture for her. In the message to my daughter she did say she'd pay her for doing it. She wanted a large 24" x 24" picture doing of a specific superhero, this involved my daughter buying materials as she didn't have a big enough canvas or all the required colours of alcohol markers etc the initial outlay was £30
It took her 30 hours in total to complete in between finishing her exams, applying for jobs and socialising etc
We dropped the painting off last week and my mum and her partner were thrilled with it. It's framed in pride of place in the lounge. We stayed for an hour and no mention of paying for the picture came up.
We left and I told my daughter I'd mention it to my mum if she'd not paid over the next day or two. The next morning my mum posted a card with 30 quid in it so that just covered costs really.
Eventually I got the courage to mention to my mum that £30 only just covered costs and she messaged back saying "So you want me to give her more money or what?"
I've not replied yet. I know my daughter should have sorted rough pricing with her at the time but she's a kid and a bit anxious about things like that. And I know my mum didn't know how much the materials would cost (although I have mentioned it in passing to her while the picture was still being done) I feel terrible now that I've upset my mum and my daughter did 30+ hours of work for nothing.
Was I unreasonable to point out that £30 only just covered costs? But if someone does a commission piece for you, would you just presume how much you should pay for it or would you ask?

I mean, if it was my DD then I'd probably just give her an extra £50 myself for her time/effort/doing something nice for her Grandma. Then tell your DMum not to worry about it. No drama.

I think some of these replies are harsh. The girl in question is only 16! The grandmother offered to pay – which she hasn't – she could easily have asked 'how much do I owe you?', or she could have checked with OP if she wanted to do it more discretely. Yes, of course the girl will need to learn how to charge for a commissioned artwork in the future but I wouldn't expect that at her age. @TFan you'll probably have to chalk this one up to experience, but I have to say I don't like the sound of your mum very much.

In one of your updates you mentioned that she doesnt usually charge friends etc but that those pieces are usually A4 with materials she has so no cost to her. Your mum has reimbursed the cost - so the same no profit as she gains from mere friends.

Obviously your mum said she would pay. But she didn't specify a price and she wasn't told what your daughter wanted. She very unlikely knows how long it would have taken and wouldnt have known until you said how much the materials were.

I think really this is for your daughter to address and she needs to be clearer in future. I agree with a pp that your mum may have just been trying to be supportive and encouraging and so had she received a commercial quote she may have said no

Tell her it's fine and to take it as a Christmas gift and daughter needs to agree on prices upfront for commissions. Chalk it up to experience.

Ah your poor daughter. My neice did a brilliant painting for me when she was doing her Art A level and I paid her for her hours worked and materials. It still takes pride of place in my home, 14yrs later and I still tell guests that my neice was so going when she did it. My mum (her nan) did the same. No way would I have expected her to produce the beautiful painting for just the cost of materials, neither would my mum.
Could you talk to your mum about the hours of work your daughter put into producing her artwork?
I would have thought that a proud grandmother of a talented child would pay accordingly, rather than have to be asked. My mum paid her more than she worked as she wanted to support and encourage my neice in her artistic skills (which she did use in her degree and her work now as a stylist / graphic designer)

Just put it down to experience. Your mum has a lovely painting done by her granddaughter and your daughter has added to her portfolio.

I'd reply and say yes, as you said you'd pay her for it.

I think you are BU because you should have encouraged your DD to work out a price and tell your DM how much it would cost her BEFORE she started the work, rather than leaving it until it's caused bad feeling on both sides.

You should have provided a price before the work. The situation is now really awkward.

Well it wouldn't be if the OP's mum hadn't tried to get something for nothing.

She knew that the OP's daughter was posting on Facebook to make money. And she took up time from potentially a job where her granddaughter was earning to exploit her.

I cannot imagine my mother ever being like this. Ever. It's horrible behaviour.

I can't believe posters are making out it's the 16 year old's fault for not expecting granny would try and rip her off.

Actually the Christmas present idea is good. Pay your daughter what your mum owes her and then tell your mum that's her Christmas present.

This is always a tough one. Yes of course she should have covered more than costs. However your mum probably thought she was helping her just by asking for it, and probably thought £30 was generous. Is she likely to have ordered it off anyone if it wasn’t her granddaughter?
My sister knits. She doesn’t charge for them and makes beautiful bits, but even the cost price can be eye watering before you add in time. People then think well I can get a scarf in primark for way less than that. People don’t appreciate (not in a bad way, just not understand) the time and costs that go into this stuff.
She isn’t thinking £30 costs + 30hrs. She’s thinking of it like a print she can go and pick up somewhere for £10/15. A lot of people will think the same unfortunately. Your daughter needs to get tough and decide on a price and stick to it, value her art. Curiously what would she ask?
In terms of your mum keep it light and just say she was happy to do it for you, I just knew you probably didn’t realise that it cost that much just in materials. It’s shocking isn’t it. Then leave it with her. As pp said you don’t want bad feelings. If she doesn’t come forward herself then maybe give your daughter something yourself.

I think yabu this is a close family member, a grandmother she drew a nice picture and paid for the costs. I'd be mortified if my kids wanted to profit off a grandparent. This isn't some random.

I'd be mortified to rip off my grandchild.

I don’t think you Mum is unreasonable to maybe not know how much the materials cost or the time it takes, or how much it might be worth. Lots of people don’t know what art is worth.

This is very true. Whether it's art materials, wool, cake ingredients or whatever, people have it in their mind that it's 'just a little hobby' - and hobbies that you do at home are basically free.

This doesn't make it right, though. Somebody old enough to be a grandmother should at least have an idea that the materials could cost a significant amount. Even if it had been 'stuff that she already had in', that still means that whatever she uses for this job, she will have to pay to replace.

Just put it down to experience. Your mum has a lovely painting done by her granddaughter and your daughter has added to her portfolio.

To be honest, I find this rather patronising (the last part). It was definitely the daughter doing the gran a big favour; it wasn't the gran being magnanimous in 'allowing' her granddaughter to do it for her. She could have gained just as much experience in creating it for an actual paying customer.

This just sounds like the same attitude as used by self-appointed social media 'influencers', when they try to blag freebies 'in exchange for valuable exposure for you'.

I'd be mortified if my kids wanted to profit off a grandparent.

How is it 'profiting off her' to just receive some recompense for 30 hours of her time? She could have used those 30 hours to do an intricate large painting for somebody else, who would have paid her for it, or any other job that would have earned her money - so she has actually made a quite a big loss.

I never understand how, in situations like this, it's considered disgraceful for one member of the family to benefit in any way (the daughter receiving pay for all of her very hard work) but perfectly fine for another family member to benefit (the gran commissioning a significant work of art and paying nothing more than the cost of the materials). Especially as it's a senior member being subsidised by a child.

I'd be mortified as well if I had expected my grandchild to spend so long on producing a significant addition to my home, at my request, and not paid her anything for it.

It's funny, on another current AIBU thread most posters are talking about shopping for their 18-year-olds going off to university, putting together care packages (one's even including condoms in her DD's care package) and worrying about how they will ever cope. And yet on here the majority of posters are telling OP that her 16-year-old should be able to negotiate terms with her grandmother for a piece of specially commissioned artwork and that it's her own fault she didn't do this… MN at its finest 😂

I'd be mortified if my kids wanted to profit off a grandparent.

I'd be mortified if my parent offered to pay my DD for something and then reneged on it.

Agree with everyone who says DD will have learnt to clarify arrangements in advance, but that is of limited use at the moment.

Are you positive your mum loves the piece and doesn’t just put it in a prominent spot when you and DD visit? If she has mixed feelings that could be part of the problem, though it should not matter - I still think DD should be paid for her time.

I can’t imagine my DPs backing out on paying a DGC though if money is super tight I suppose the £30 could be leaving a bad taste. This is a very rare instance where I think intervention by the you the parent is a good idea. I think Mates’ Rates for a 30 hr job would be £100 but if your DM is on a tight budget £50 might be more realistic. I suppose if for some reason asking for money feels wrong DD could offer the work as a birthday or early Christmas present.

Very mean of your mother, 16 year olds are generally working to earn money for things, she should have given her £100 - at least.

This is an important lesson for both you and your dd. Almost everyone undervalues artist’s work. Poke around the art community online a bit and you will see this is a common refrain.

even at 5 an hour, that is a £150 painting. Now, maybe she wouldn’t charge her grandmother close to minimum wage, but that just gives some perspective.

this is why I don’t sell my work and I don’t encourage my dd to sell her original work, though I am trying to convince her to get into reproductions.

I think you could remind your mum of the original Facebook post, and that your daughter is raising funds for college. It's up to her then to decide.

But you need to have a serious conversation with your daughter about how this things work. If she wants to do commissioned artwork, she needs to understand how to price for it.

So what's the problem? Your mother's said should she give her more money so you reply yes, another £20 would be great mum. It's just a misunderstanding and also your dd will have the pens for another job.

The reality is that people don’t ‘get’ how much creative crafts cost, either in terms or time or materials.

Your mother has, as far as she’s concerned, generously paid £30 for a picture from her granddaughter as a favour.

She has no idea how much the materials cost.

This is a lesson for you and your daughter to learn - if someone offers to pay you agree a price beforehand.

I do several crafts well enough to be paid but take no money as I do them for the process. A friend was shocked the material cost for a blanket was £80 without the 10 hours of time it took to make it. If £80 for a blanket seems bonkers, how mad would it be if I tried charging the real amount?

I think this and you should specifically mention the 30 hours. Maybe say the amount is up to you but any contribution towards college costs would be very much appreciated.

If too awkward and you are in a good financial position, agree with PPs that you should pay DD yourself and say don’t worry about it, this can be your Christmas present from me.