Why does she always say she can't do it/it's too hard?

UndertheCedartree · 2023-09-13T15:02:26+00:00

My DD is 11, Y7 and autistic (for background.) She missed quite a bit of school in Y5/beginning of Y6 due to having Covid and then Long Covid, obviously on top of the Lockdown times. Despite that she just about met expectations for Maths in her SATs and was above for Reading and SPAG. She seems to have no confidence in herself, though. Every time I do school work with her she'll say she can't do it or it's too hard. So for example a Maths problem she'll say she can't do it. So I'll look at the question and say e.g 'what's the first thing you need to do?' and she'll tell me correctly and then does it, I say 'what's the next thing?' And she can do it! Is there anything I can do to help her see she can do it! I'm finding it baffling, tbh.

Readingisgoodforyou · 13/09/2023 16:10

My boy who's in year 7 has done this all of his school life. I know it's because he can't be bothered by the time he gets home. I ask him to do things I know he's capable of and he zones out and 'can't do it.' It's just easier for him to do nothing. It's a constant battle to get him to do any academic work.
Give him a hammer, nails and a plank of wood and he's well away!

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 13/09/2023 16:30

Readingisgoodforyou · 13/09/2023 16:10

My boy who's in year 7 has done this all of his school life. I know it's because he can't be bothered by the time he gets home. I ask him to do things I know he's capable of and he zones out and 'can't do it.' It's just easier for him to do nothing. It's a constant battle to get him to do any academic work.
Give him a hammer, nails and a plank of wood and he's well away!

Yes, that makes sense, actually. She loves colouring and art so anything around that she tackles enthusiastically!

OP posts:

PumpkinPie2016 · 13/09/2023 17:09

Could it be a confidence thing?

I teach secondary and with some pupils who say they can't do it, it is a lack of confidence/fear of getting it wrong.

Keep supporting her the way you are. Also, she may feel more comfortable working on a mini whiteboard first or rough paper. Then any mistakes don't matter. She can write up in nest after?

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 13/09/2023 17:37

PumpkinPie2016 · 13/09/2023 17:09

Could it be a confidence thing?

I teach secondary and with some pupils who say they can't do it, it is a lack of confidence/fear of getting it wrong.

Keep supporting her the way you are. Also, she may feel more comfortable working on a mini whiteboard first or rough paper. Then any mistakes don't matter. She can write up in nest after?

Edited

She does seem to have little confidence. The whiteboard is a good idea.

OP posts:

NDWifeandMan · 13/09/2023 17:41

I forgot what the term was but I am also ND (as per my username) and that's what I do, put things off because I can't sequence it, I think it's a form of executive dysfunction. Because there are so many thoughts racing through my head it's difficult to get to the point of 'what is the first thing' to do, I look at the question and a billion other questions just explode into my brain.

What has helped me is sort of looking for the North Star... actively saying to myself OK, what is my objective? What do I need to do? Then working in either direction as needed? Building a map in my head basically instead of a jumble of thoughts. That's sort of what you are doing basically, for her.

Of course, it does make me look stupid in comparison to others who don't need to actively reason step by step but the upside is I'm quite good at breaking things down now and so am always sure about everything I do. Like a computer, I need specific instructions so I never make assumptions.

StamppotAndGravy · 13/09/2023 17:47

I have a phd in physics now but vividly remember doing that when my parents tried to help me with maths homework. I think it was a mix of hating mixing school and home (I can't do it for you, and I meant it), being really tired after school so my brain didn't go, not wanting to let my parents see I couldn't do it, and also knowing that they might back down whereas I had no choice with a teacher. I really did feel like I couldn't do it though. Sometimes I still do it at work (in my head!) and have to give myself a stern talking to! Is there anyone else who could help out to take the pressure off? Or a tutor?

Carlessly · 13/09/2023 17:55

I'm pretty sure my DS reasons "I've never done it before, so I can't do it." Doesn't matter if it's a row of sums or whatever and he's done the first one, each one is a completely new problem. He doesn't link them to anything he's done before so he "can't do it". That plus a fear of getting it wrong I.e. it's better to get 0 because he refused to do it than try and fail. Plus if he kicks up too much there won't be time for him to do any homework.

Don't forget they've just started Yr 7 and there is a huge amount of new things they have to get used to. Organising themselves for different classes, classrooms, teachers, getting to and around school, dealing with new classmates and maybe different classmates in each class. It's possibly also overload and exhaustion.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 13/09/2023 22:06

NDWifeandMan · 13/09/2023 17:41

I forgot what the term was but I am also ND (as per my username) and that's what I do, put things off because I can't sequence it, I think it's a form of executive dysfunction. Because there are so many thoughts racing through my head it's difficult to get to the point of 'what is the first thing' to do, I look at the question and a billion other questions just explode into my brain.

What has helped me is sort of looking for the North Star... actively saying to myself OK, what is my objective? What do I need to do? Then working in either direction as needed? Building a map in my head basically instead of a jumble of thoughts. That's sort of what you are doing basically, for her.

Of course, it does make me look stupid in comparison to others who don't need to actively reason step by step but the upside is I'm quite good at breaking things down now and so am always sure about everything I do. Like a computer, I need specific instructions so I never make assumptions.

Edited

Yes, I get what you are saying. I'm also autistic and I often avoid tasks due to anxiety so I can see this could be doing that. I also struggle with the order to do things and have to carefully work it out or I can go round and round in circles for ever. So I see this could be helping her with the order. Thank you for your thoughts.

OP posts:

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 13/09/2023 22:08

StamppotAndGravy · 13/09/2023 17:47

I have a phd in physics now but vividly remember doing that when my parents tried to help me with maths homework. I think it was a mix of hating mixing school and home (I can't do it for you, and I meant it), being really tired after school so my brain didn't go, not wanting to let my parents see I couldn't do it, and also knowing that they might back down whereas I had no choice with a teacher. I really did feel like I couldn't do it though. Sometimes I still do it at work (in my head!) and have to give myself a stern talking to! Is there anyone else who could help out to take the pressure off? Or a tutor?

Thank you for the insight, very interesting.

OP posts:

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 13/09/2023 22:12

Carlessly · 13/09/2023 17:55

I'm pretty sure my DS reasons "I've never done it before, so I can't do it." Doesn't matter if it's a row of sums or whatever and he's done the first one, each one is a completely new problem. He doesn't link them to anything he's done before so he "can't do it". That plus a fear of getting it wrong I.e. it's better to get 0 because he refused to do it than try and fail. Plus if he kicks up too much there won't be time for him to do any homework.

Don't forget they've just started Yr 7 and there is a huge amount of new things they have to get used to. Organising themselves for different classes, classrooms, teachers, getting to and around school, dealing with new classmates and maybe different classmates in each class. It's possibly also overload and exhaustion.

I'm sure tiredness is contributing. It is a lot for them to get used to.

OP posts:

Motheranddaughtertotwo · 13/09/2023 22:17

I think it could be a confidence thing. My ND son used to be like this; I kept hammering on about mistakes being ok and I gave him “rough paper” so he could work things out without worrying that the teacher will see it. He’s much better now.
Keep praising her when she gets the small parts right. Let her see you breaking it down too. I have taught many autistic children (at primary not secondary) and often once the overload is taken away and they can focus on one manageable thing they achieve more.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 14/09/2023 11:21

Motheranddaughtertotwo · 13/09/2023 22:17

I think it could be a confidence thing. My ND son used to be like this; I kept hammering on about mistakes being ok and I gave him “rough paper” so he could work things out without worrying that the teacher will see it. He’s much better now.
Keep praising her when she gets the small parts right. Let her see you breaking it down too. I have taught many autistic children (at primary not secondary) and often once the overload is taken away and they can focus on one manageable thing they achieve more.

Thank you for that. I'm definitely thinking me helping her break it down may be the key.

OP posts:

TheBarbieEffect · 14/09/2023 11:26

She’s telling you it’s too hard and she can’t do it because she’s looking at the bigger picture, the whole thing, and it’s overwhelming.

Telling her she can do it isn’t helpful and invalidates how she feels.

ntmdino · 14/09/2023 11:44

NDWifeandMan · 13/09/2023 17:41

I forgot what the term was but I am also ND (as per my username) and that's what I do, put things off because I can't sequence it, I think it's a form of executive dysfunction. Because there are so many thoughts racing through my head it's difficult to get to the point of 'what is the first thing' to do, I look at the question and a billion other questions just explode into my brain.

What has helped me is sort of looking for the North Star... actively saying to myself OK, what is my objective? What do I need to do? Then working in either direction as needed? Building a map in my head basically instead of a jumble of thoughts. That's sort of what you are doing basically, for her.

Of course, it does make me look stupid in comparison to others who don't need to actively reason step by step but the upside is I'm quite good at breaking things down now and so am always sure about everything I do. Like a computer, I need specific instructions so I never make assumptions.

Edited

This is exactly it, IMO. I'm also autistic, and I liken this sort of problem to being in a shop.

If there's one person in the shop right in front of me, I can hear them absolutely fine and we can carry on a conversation. If the shop's full and everybody's talking, I can no longer hear the person right in front of me because it's like all the other sources of noise (people) are screaming for my attention at the same time.

Similarly for a multi-step problem, like the fact that we've needed to redecorate our hallway and landing for three years. The problem is that just painting it will look crap because the plaster also needs doing, and the woodwork needs replacing, and we need to make covers for the weird stone skirting downstairs, and the stairs creak so I need to replace those, and the carpet needs replacing upstairs, but some of the floorboards also need sorting so I need to do that at the same time, and the banister needs to be replaced, but the dogs have been chewing the end post, which runs all the way through the floor to be part of the cupboards below, so they need replacing....

So the decorating hasn't been done, because my brain explodes with the magnitude of the task that was - originally - just refreshing the paint, maybe a two day job. It's basically now a whole-house renovation in my head with a whole bunch of unknowns.

It's exactly the same with multi-step maths problems - the steps aren't second-nature in her head, so they're big scary unknowns, which means that even if she knows what they are when prompted, they become an even bigger scary unknown.

My advice would be to...well, I don't know the specific set of problems, but let's say it's a four-step solution. Practice the first step loads with her to the point where it's trivial for her to do, then set her a bunch of questions that need both the first and the second step until she's got the process set in her head. Then the same for the second and third step, and then put the first three together, and finally the fourth step. Importantly, try to let her sleep between each iteration, so her brain has a chance to integrate it into her "this is natural, I know this" operation (I have no idea why this works, but it always has for me).

It might seem like a really long-winded way to go about it, but it might have a better chance of success than just showing her the process and saying "Do it!".

towriteyoumustlive · 14/09/2023 11:45

I teach at a secondary school and this is quite common.

You need to get them thinking differently about things they deem to be difficult.

If what they're doing is easy and they're not making mistakes then they're not actually learning anything. Making mistakes = making progress = completely normal.

Kids get it into their head around age 10 onwards that they can't make mistakes as it's a bad thing, when for learning new stuff it's quite the opposite.

Working with her will help, letting her see you do something challenging and persevering with it, and even get her to help you! My son (now Y8) has the "can't do it" attitude to English, so I got him to teach me how to do the Rubiks cube, and made sure he could see me practicing, getting it all wrong, and persevering. I still mess up the last row but I don't give up and I ask him to help me. In return he has got better at doing his English homework, albeit I support him and get him started.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 14/09/2023 16:40

ntmdino · 14/09/2023 11:44

This is exactly it, IMO. I'm also autistic, and I liken this sort of problem to being in a shop.

If there's one person in the shop right in front of me, I can hear them absolutely fine and we can carry on a conversation. If the shop's full and everybody's talking, I can no longer hear the person right in front of me because it's like all the other sources of noise (people) are screaming for my attention at the same time.

Similarly for a multi-step problem, like the fact that we've needed to redecorate our hallway and landing for three years. The problem is that just painting it will look crap because the plaster also needs doing, and the woodwork needs replacing, and we need to make covers for the weird stone skirting downstairs, and the stairs creak so I need to replace those, and the carpet needs replacing upstairs, but some of the floorboards also need sorting so I need to do that at the same time, and the banister needs to be replaced, but the dogs have been chewing the end post, which runs all the way through the floor to be part of the cupboards below, so they need replacing....

So the decorating hasn't been done, because my brain explodes with the magnitude of the task that was - originally - just refreshing the paint, maybe a two day job. It's basically now a whole-house renovation in my head with a whole bunch of unknowns.

It's exactly the same with multi-step maths problems - the steps aren't second-nature in her head, so they're big scary unknowns, which means that even if she knows what they are when prompted, they become an even bigger scary unknown.

My advice would be to...well, I don't know the specific set of problems, but let's say it's a four-step solution. Practice the first step loads with her to the point where it's trivial for her to do, then set her a bunch of questions that need both the first and the second step until she's got the process set in her head. Then the same for the second and third step, and then put the first three together, and finally the fourth step. Importantly, try to let her sleep between each iteration, so her brain has a chance to integrate it into her "this is natural, I know this" operation (I have no idea why this works, but it always has for me).

It might seem like a really long-winded way to go about it, but it might have a better chance of success than just showing her the process and saying "Do it!".

Show quote history

That's a good idea. I've read a book about sleep and it moves things from short term to long term memory so really does help you remember it.

OP posts:

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 14/09/2023 17:17

towriteyoumustlive · 14/09/2023 11:45

I teach at a secondary school and this is quite common.

You need to get them thinking differently about things they deem to be difficult.

If what they're doing is easy and they're not making mistakes then they're not actually learning anything. Making mistakes = making progress = completely normal.

Kids get it into their head around age 10 onwards that they can't make mistakes as it's a bad thing, when for learning new stuff it's quite the opposite.

Working with her will help, letting her see you do something challenging and persevering with it, and even get her to help you! My son (now Y8) has the "can't do it" attitude to English, so I got him to teach me how to do the Rubiks cube, and made sure he could see me practicing, getting it all wrong, and persevering. I still mess up the last row but I don't give up and I ask him to help me. In return he has got better at doing his English homework, albeit I support him and get him started.

Yes, I think there is a bit of this. I was testing her on some French words earlier and there was one word she scribbled out, but I could still see what it said. She's got it all right, except she couldn't remember the last letter!

OP posts:

NewName122 · 14/09/2023 19:26

She needs it broken up and that's exactly what you are doing with her. Looking at it as one big overwhelming task is too much for her. It IS too hard. She can do it but needs it broken up. Step by step. What comes first.... what is next... Very normal thing for autistic people to struggle with (in my experience anyway). I know my son struggles with this. He can do it broken down but looking at it as one big task gets him so overwhelmed.