To hate the Daily Mail and its anti WFH vendetta

[catsliketowearsocks]

There is yet another DM story doing the rounds today about people 'working from beach'. Apparently it's council worker this time rather than civil servants. I work for a council and we would not be able to live abroad as we have impromptu office meetings, but even if we wanted to for the short term (like, for a family emergency or flight issues) we would have to apply for permission due to cybersecurity rules.

The DM would like to ban WFH which is just nasty. There may be a small number who take the piss but I don't believe that's the norm. WFH has vastly improved my life and mental health.

I'm willing to bet many DM journalists work remotely.

I'm a big fan of hybrid working.

I'm in my 20s and fully WFH jobs are absolutely detrimental to many people my age IMO. So many of my peers do not leave the house anymore and are increasingly isolated. Online games and discord are the main form of social interaction for many.

People talk about young families. Have you seen the statistics? Many young people do not date or have relationships any more. Almost every person I know my age are single or in LDR with someone from a completely different country whom they met in a video game. Maybe it's because I studied computer science where people are more introverted to begin with, but I don't think the huge swathes of young people choosing to never leave the house is healthy.

I'm not even going to get into the societal problems that prolonged isolation causes. So many of my peers are anxious about the most basic of things. Maybe being forced to go into the office has left some of these people behind but then you now see the average person who would perhaps be ok if they were pushed out their comfort zone find it more and more difficult to do "difficult" things. I would know. I spent two years getting food delivered and sitting at home all day long.

People say "oh you should take responsibility for your own life and volunteer or find clubs/groups/hobbies". Yes, it was my fault, and yes, I should take more responsibility but we as people generally will follow the path of least resistance. I'm no longer a hermit, but being an isolated hermit is increasingly becoming something that's normalised.

We didn't have monthly threads complaining about meetings that should have been emails, bad commutes, the disadvantages to introverts etc

Because people hadn't been shown that there was an alternative. I have worked from home for the best part of two decades, but pre-covid most people only did it on Fridays and if they were having a parcel delivered/work done in the house.

People say "oh you should take responsibility for your own life and volunteer or find clubs/groups/hobbies". Yes, it was my fault, and yes, I should take more responsibility but we as people generally will follow the path of least resistance. I'm no longer a hermit, but being an isolated hermit is increasingly becoming something that's normalised

up to them and personally I would rather WFH and choose my own hobbies than work in the office, have a long (and expensive) commute and come home to collapse in a heap. Admittedly my view is coloured by the fact my employer is in London, if I had a 10 minute drive or cycle ride to work things would be different.

I ignore it, its SO obvious now that its to vilify WFH because the rich tory landlords want their office space occupied.

Some sectors prefer it!

I m a paid employee for a charity and in this sector it means they save a lot on office costs

There are pros and cons its not by any means a panacea but its useful to be able to finish at 4 pm ready for dc to come in at 4. 15. No wasting time commuting no having to get 1-2 hours after school childcare.

DM probably hates it because those who benefit most are mums, disabled psople, parents of children with SEND etc some of the people they hate most.

This is true of any employee in any situation but at least when they were in the office, these people were in a structured environment and given help/support in managing their time.

Maybe they were in the offices you worked in @Funderthighs! I can assure you this was not universal practice.

actually WFH does not work in many occupations!

Of course it doesn't work in many occupation, but conversely it does in many others.

why should people be allowed to work from home?

Why shouldn't they? In our hybrid-working organisation it has led to better work-life balance, which feeds into people's workplace wellbeing and improved staff engagement and generally a less stressed workforce. Productivity hasn't been affected negatively, quite the opposite actually. And above all, employee retention has improved markedly, especially for an organisation that had a staggering staff turnover pre WFH policy.

I know for a fact the WFH did not work in my husband's legal office!!

So your anecdotal 'evidence' means people's shouldn't be allowed to work from home.

@AConnoisseurOfBiscuits that is a really interesting post (if a little sad in terms of people feeling so anxious and being so isolated).

That's an issue for their managers, and dealing the demands of managing a remote team.

I agree the commute is an issue for many.

I guess for me I come at it from the viewpoint of how it can be individually advantageous but societally disadvantageous. Just purely anecdotally of course but I've found that one of the big issues with no "compulsory" mixing between people of all sexes and ages is that used-to-be fringe internet views are now mainstream.

So many of my ex-classmates spend all day on the internet and at home and many believe that women are all now gold-diggers who are either on OF or waiting to be a SAHM so they can divorce their mediocre husbands for a payout in the future. reddit is ridiculously popular among my peers and if you see the prevailing viewpoints on there esp when it comes to women, it's no wonder someone will adopt these viewpoints too when they have no real contact with others irl.

Surely this isn't healthy for society?

Really interesting post @AConnoisseurOfBiscuits.

For most people, speaking to other people in the real world, in person, on a regular basis, is a good thing. It's not only evil Tory capitalist landlords who think this.

Any decent workplace should be willing to work around the needs of introverts, or those with nuerodiversity or disability. Modern workplaces are not, for the most part, Mad Men-style macho drinking dens where the weak are mocked.

Quite clearly for the majority of people, some in-office in-person interaction is beneficial. I myself am an introvert in some ways and I have suffered from periods of anxiety/mental health issues in my life. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that at those points in my life, had total WFH been allowed, I would have jumped on it. Would that have been beneficial to me or my career long term? I don't think so.

The issue with blaming WFH for the service issues faced in the public sector, namely civil service, is that it is such an oversimplification and doesn't even touch the true cause of the issues.

The reason there is backlogs is due to a variety of factors. One of them is a chronic lack of funding and staffing issues, but sure, blame the staff working from home for issues they didn't cause or create.

Getting people back into the office won't solve staffing or funding issues. In fact, it'd likely exacerbate the issues as people would leave and find employment with employers offering WFH. That's a reality the "back to office," crew refuse to accept.

So, essentially, it would be taking one benefit away from employees to punish them for issues they didn't cause.

People have a vision of the WFH "class" as if we're all middle-class, soy latte sipping, in our big, spacious gardens and that we're all incredibly privileged. That isn't the case for many-many who work from home are entry level IT people, call centre staff, office admins, people who are working minimum wage jobs and WFH enables them to save a bit of money on the commute.

But sure, let's punish those people because some people don't like WFH and want to ban it because they can't WFH so why should anyone else? Well, I'm sorry, Brenda, but when you signed up to be a nurse, did you think WFH would be part of the package?

Why can't you see or understand that that opinion is only reflective of you and your personal feelings?

Just because WFH wouldn't have benefitted you-doesn't mean it doesn't benefit other people. FFS.

That is interesting @AConnoisseurOfBiscuits and chimes with my experience that some early careers colleagues are using remote working to avoid more challenging situations - of course a meeting with more senior people is "safer" if you can join online and switch off your camera - but it won't get you the exposure and experience that attending in person will.

Just as importantly it won't allow me, as a manager, to assess whether you understand softer skills like appropriate dress, greeting people properly, remaining engaged in the meeting etc..

Certainly decent workplaces should be willing to do a lot of things. I presume we all know, however, that not all workplaces are decent, and that it doesn't always work out this way in practice?

@CleverLilViper There's no need for the 'FFS' I don't think - I wasn't being impolite - just sharing my views. For what it's worth, they're not just my personal views about myself and how I work best, I manage a large team and have done for many years (50 plus people). Objectively, the return to the office has improved the team's performance in every sense - mental health and wellbeing (as measured formally by HR/them, not by me), fewer people on performance improvement plans, better financial results for the company, more promotions and pay rises.

I'm aware this might not be the case for every team or company in the country, but I was trying to point out that there are good reasons (beyond Tory capitalist ones) for people to work together in person sometimes. And as I've previously said, our staff are only in the office 3 days a week, and working hugely flexible hours, so there is still a lot of flexibility there.

Getting people back into the office won't solve staffing or funding issues. In fact, it'd likely exacerbate the issues as people would leave and find employment with employers offering WFH. That's a reality the "back to office," crew refuse to accept.

Yes exactly @CleverLilViper. Particularly in roles that aren't too well paid and where the ability to work remotely is one of the main positives/only positive about the job. The poster before who talked about it being easier to keep call centre staff on less desirable shift times when they can do it remotely made an important point.

The problem with the DM/Telegraph coverage is the target demographic being people who don't currently - or never have - work in an office or similar environment.

My grandmother has no idea of what a working culture looks like. She worked in a retail store before she was married and then did some twilight shifts in a local factory in the 80s.

She once asked a male relative "do any women work in your office?" and she assumes every workplace is some sort of factory or plant, where even highflying financial executives go to work.

She phoned me once when I was WFH and she sounded shocked when I answered. I told her that I could take a few moments to answer the phone - which would also be the case in the office.

She said "oh ok" and then proceeded to gossip at me for about 20 minutes. I put her on speakerphone and carried on with some tasks and only managed to get rid of her when I told her I had a work call to attend to.

I work in the private sector, always work in excess of my hours, don't deal with the public and I'm judged on my output before anyone starts on me.

But I think it illustrates just how little these people understand the world of work.

I agree with the sentiment that kind, tolerant older relatives have become increasingly bitter and twisted in recent years, and sound like a DM mouthpiece these days.

I agree with the sentiment that kind, tolerant older relatives have become increasingly bitter and twisted in recent years, and sound like a DM mouthpiece these days

There are many increasingly bitter and twisted people of all generations. It is the classic Tory playbook of getting different sections of the population to resent each other. Sadly, it works. You just have to look at the many racist, ageist, ableist threads on MN as well as some of the comments on this thread.

I think over time, the working world will adapt to the changes in the way we work.

Roles where you can't WFH will likely have to offer a premium to entice people to work there, which will result in more money for people at the lower end.

And wages might increase at a slower rate for those with the privilege of WFH, hybrid working or office location.

Workplaces which can, but won't, offer WFH will likely be left behind and those which don't embrace modernity will likely get what they deserve. Other workplaces which are a little archaic will be motivated to change their culture. I think it's a good thing all around.

Why can't you see or understand that that opinion is only reflective of you and your personal feelings?

It was called "it's all about me" when I worked in strategy.

On the flip side, I'm able to have time to go for a run on the days I'm wfh, but not on the days I'm in the office, because there's no time once you add in the commute. Which is fine, I have no issue going into the office a couple of days a week anyway. But a blanket "it's physically healthier to go into the office" isn't true. I'm fitter now than when I was in the office full time.

I work mainly from home. On a person level it works for me. However, it's not just about me, I am a manager with a team of people and it's not right for all my team. I think that hybrid is the way forward. I think that there's a massive loss of knowledge and learning when one works entirely from home unless in a very refined role. I have junior staff, on their first and second jobs, who have massive holes in their knowledge which become a much bigger deal than they need to be because they're not picked up until later. They lose a huge amount of informal learning through osmosis and having time in the office picking things up and being able to ask questions spontaneously.

I have no issue with hybrid working but I do feel that 100% remote work might work for the individual but teams / zoom simply can't replace unstructured face to face time of being in the office and learning and collaborating informally on the job.

When I started my current job pre-COVID, I was given absolutely no training and just left to fend for myself. It was a horrible, cruel experience.

I would ask my colleagues and manager questions and essentially be completely ignored. They'd respond with a sentence or few words and leave it at that, yet I still had to deliver.

The person put "in charge" of me started a secondment to a different team the day I started. I arrived at 8.30, introduced myself and was shown my desk. 20 minutes later, this person left me to it, packed the contents of his desk into a cardboard box and disappeared to another floor in the office.

WFH now means people who need assistance put it in writing - it's much harder to ignore this and there's an audit trail on the back of any negative feedback. There's a fixed plan in place for helping people work remotely and training documents have been produced which people can refer to, as opposed to a half arsed mumble you would have received were you in the office.

So there are benefits to being a new starter and working remotely. I'm not underestimating the positives of sitting around others and being shown the ropes that way, but I think a lot of the benefits are overlooked.

I also think a lot of junior colleagues have an unrealistic view of workplace culture, and I've seen it on this thread.

I've never known Friday after work drinks to be a thing. I have worked with many people who's company I enjoy. We might have a team event once a year or if someone leaves, but in my view these Work Nights Out and heading to the pub at 3pm on a Thursday or Friday were things that were left behind post-2008.

I say this as someone who works hybrid and enjoys my days in the office.

I’m sure I read somewhere that the owners of the Daily Mail had significant commercial property (office) Interests. Thus have an incentive to keep their asset price high…