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Original poster

To hate the Daily Mail and its anti WFH vendetta

341 replies

catsliketowearsocks · 04/09/2023 07:42

There is yet another DM story doing the rounds today about people 'working from beach'. Apparently it's council worker this time rather than civil servants. I work for a council and we would not be able to live abroad as we have impromptu office meetings, but even if we wanted to for the short term (like, for a family emergency or flight issues) we would have to apply for permission due to cybersecurity rules.

The DM would like to ban WFH which is just nasty. There may be a small number who take the piss but I don't believe that's the norm. WFH has vastly improved my life and mental health.

I'm willing to bet many DM journalists work remotely.

OP posts:
JustEatTheOneInTheBallPit · 04/09/2023 08:39

SnowyPetals · 04/09/2023 08:07

I think another reason the DM hates WFH is that it makes it easier for women to be something other than their two pillars of motherhood - the SAHM or the full on high flying career woman. Their journalism can't cope with that.

Hear hear.

PinkCherryBlossoms · 04/09/2023 08:40

justasking111 · 04/09/2023 08:29

Our council are working from home still. Council tax went up 10% this time. They're in a financial hole after six months of £ thirty million. Their new £fifty million office is empty, their old offices lie unused. As do other council properties libraries, a cafe on the seafront. A huge industrial unit they built and can't use because the floor is unsuitable, it's full of ppe from covid at the moment.

So as you can imagine there's a lot of simmering resentment here and WFH gets thrashed as the cause.

You touch on a really interesting point there. Lots of things have got shitter in the past three years, service is often objectively worse despite extra costs, and WFH is the most easily visible target for people's frustration.

There are a lot of complaints on here about poor service from companies and organisations with wfh staff, with the assumption that the problem is the wfh and a magic wand needs to be waved to get them all back into the office.

Eleganz · 04/09/2023 08:40

The telegraph is just as bad, spewing hatred of the public sector and WFH on a regular basis.

The reason why you can't get through to the public services you need is that the Tories have not funded them properly, not because the staff are ignoring your calls at home. Most civil servants I know have Microsoft Teams linked to IPT and their mobile phones.

LittleMonks11 · 04/09/2023 08:41

I die a little inside every time I see someone pick up the DM in the shops. I am this close to saying each time, 'you shouldn't read that you know, it's full of lies and spiteful racist shite'. But I'll probably get a big mouthful.

Viviennemary · 04/09/2023 08:41

I am also very anti WFH except very occasionally. It's wrong it has become the norm. IMHO.

FernsInTheFire · 04/09/2023 08:41

RaininSummer · 04/09/2023 07:47

Ah this explains why one of my mum's mega rants always included people working from home who need to get back to the office.

My dad too. Telegraph reader. I have seen him work himself into a rage about civil servants using Peloton bikes on their breaks when wfh.

The odd thing is when he was working his employer was extremely flexible and doing hybrid years before it became standard.

LittleMonks11 · 04/09/2023 08:42

Telegraph is the posh version of the DM - it's where my dear mother found her Brexit ideas.

maddening · 04/09/2023 08:43

justasking111 · 04/09/2023 08:29

Our council are working from home still. Council tax went up 10% this time. They're in a financial hole after six months of £ thirty million. Their new £fifty million office is empty, their old offices lie unused. As do other council properties libraries, a cafe on the seafront. A huge industrial unit they built and can't use because the floor is unsuitable, it's full of ppe from covid at the moment.

So as you can imagine there's a lot of simmering resentment here and WFH gets thrashed as the cause.

Our company is hybrid working and saved a fortune by closing offices as they only need 40% desk capacity. At the sake time they have upgraded the working space to encourage the office to be used for collaboration - so you use your wfh time for deep concentration work and meetings held with stakeholders across locations (no point traveling in to be sat on teams calls all day) and use the office for face to face and collaboration work.

Ginmonkeyagain · 04/09/2023 08:43

The odd thing is the civil service has had flexible hybrid working for years as many offices in London were 7/10 to save space.

It is the corporate world that was often behind on this sort of thing.

Poivresel · 04/09/2023 08:45

I doubt if many are wfh in another country.
In France at least there are many rules regarding working for a foreign country whilst on french soil. A British employer would have to agree to pay french social charges to start with.

EmmaPaella · 04/09/2023 08:45

RaininSummer · 04/09/2023 07:47

Ah this explains why one of my mum's mega rants always included people working from home who need to get back to the office.

It also explains why MIL starts random conversations with me about exactly how I work from home and says things like “you look relaxed” when she pops by unannounced.

Eleganz · 04/09/2023 08:45

FernsInTheFire · 04/09/2023 08:41

My dad too. Telegraph reader. I have seen him work himself into a rage about civil servants using Peloton bikes on their breaks when wfh.

The odd thing is when he was working his employer was extremely flexible and doing hybrid years before it became standard.

Show quote history

The point is that people like your dad are being told to hate public sector workers. They are encouraged to see them as lazy, incompetent leaches wasting tax payers' money. WFH is just one of a number of tools used by the right wing press to hammer public servants. I've also seen articles bashing the public sector for paying for training courses, retirement gifts, business travel, etc.

This narrative is utterly corrosive to society.

anniegun · 04/09/2023 08:46

Its the Mail so what do people expect? Manufactured outrage to provoke people who are easily outraged. A right wing agenda backed by unscrupulous people.

Eleganz · 04/09/2023 08:48

Ginmonkeyagain · 04/09/2023 08:43

The odd thing is the civil service has had flexible hybrid working for years as many offices in London were 7/10 to save space.

It is the corporate world that was often behind on this sort of thing.

I believe it was actually 60%.

I have some connections who work in the DfE. A while ago they were given the three line whip to come into he offices in London, even permanently remote workers following Jacob Rees-Mogg's campaign to demonise working from home. After clogging up all the meeting rooms and working in corridors and break areas I think senior management lasted a couple of days before convincing the minister to back down.

SuperiorM · 04/09/2023 08:48

Ahh, now I know why this comes up in conversation with my Dad. Honestly, he benefits from the greater flexibility I have by hybrid working and access to flexible working arrangements. WFH fir part of the week is also much more efficient for me and many others who didn’t do this pre COVID

cathyj77 · 04/09/2023 08:49

Flexibility and hybrid working are incredibly helpful but people who deny the issues with the extent of WFH we have right now are kidding themselves slightly I think. Also hate the DM but have a lot of sympathy with them on this.

There are a number of measures of ‘productivity’ - my husband for example claims he gets more done WFH and in one sense he does, he spends more hours at his desk. At the same time, he has put on weight, and his back issues are worse. He also is relatively senior and experienced in his role and has contacts so the fact that he WFH most of the time doesn’t matter. For younger, new starters, it matters hugely.

In my workplace, we work hybrid - in the office 3 days a week, at home 2 - and this was enforced from Jan 2022 onwards. There was a lot of moaning at the time but almost everyone (including those who were originally reluctant) now concede it was a good thing. It is not physically or mentally healthy (for the vast majority of people, not including neurodiversity and disability here) to work all alone in your home full time. You don’t learn the same skills or achieve the same results.

Seashellies · 04/09/2023 08:51

cakeorwine · 04/09/2023 07:53

If they try to get the public sector to drop hybrid working, then they should not be surprised to find fewer people want to work in the public sector as hybrid working is popular and companies that offer it have an advantage over others.

And then they will complain about a lack of public sector workers.

I dunno 'perks and benefits' have often been the dangling carrot in lieu of fair wages that meet inflation etc. With some of these removed maybe they'd have to start paying a decent wage!

Grantanow · 04/09/2023 08:53

Don't buy it and don't read it.

Serendipitoushedgehog · 04/09/2023 08:55

This was my favourite of their articles on the subject 😂. Just so silly; I can’t believe people take this shit seriously.

To hate the Daily Mail and its anti WFH vendetta
FernsInTheFire · 04/09/2023 08:56

I agree, Eleganz. Big dash of hypocrisy too as he disapproves of wfh in general due to the effect he feels it has on the economy, but was proud of his former employer for its perks. The only way I can make sense is that benefits are ok for some people but not if everyone starts wanting them.

We had a really angry argument about this once and the topic hasn’t come up again. Lots of irrational fury. The fact he couldn’t back up what he was saying was making him angrier.

Eleganz · 04/09/2023 08:56

cathyj77 · 04/09/2023 08:49

Flexibility and hybrid working are incredibly helpful but people who deny the issues with the extent of WFH we have right now are kidding themselves slightly I think. Also hate the DM but have a lot of sympathy with them on this.

There are a number of measures of ‘productivity’ - my husband for example claims he gets more done WFH and in one sense he does, he spends more hours at his desk. At the same time, he has put on weight, and his back issues are worse. He also is relatively senior and experienced in his role and has contacts so the fact that he WFH most of the time doesn’t matter. For younger, new starters, it matters hugely.

In my workplace, we work hybrid - in the office 3 days a week, at home 2 - and this was enforced from Jan 2022 onwards. There was a lot of moaning at the time but almost everyone (including those who were originally reluctant) now concede it was a good thing. It is not physically or mentally healthy (for the vast majority of people, not including neurodiversity and disability here) to work all alone in your home full time. You don’t learn the same skills or achieve the same results.

I agree that I think hybrid is the best of both worlds although making workers go in for most of their time has always felt excessive and "one size fits all". We have a role-based assessment about remote working which I feel works much better.

However, please understand that the DM and the Telegraph hate hybrid working just as much as fully remote. They want everyone in the commercial properties in city centres funding the commercial property owners that are friends with the owners of these newspapers.

They also hate the public sector as the people who are behind these papers don't want lots of civil servants doing things they want a small number of overworked civil servants badly administering large contracts with the private sector to provide services whilst making nice fat profits. Their concerns have nothing to do with genuine concern for public sector efficiency and are all about building public support for their vested interests by spreading misinformation.

haXXor · 04/09/2023 08:57

Newbutoldfather · 04/09/2023 08:02

I hate the DM, but kind of agree about WFH.

Every employment contract should be about a trade of skills and effort for money and conditions, so if you are so good that your employer still wants you if you WFH, fair enough. However, WFH is not the same as being in the office and has many negatives from an employer’s perspective.

The downside is most apparent for young people at the start of their career. You just can’t informally mentor over Teams effectively. And young people lose out on the social aspect of work, which is also really important. The spontaneous Friday night pub outing after a bad week is so helpful.

I do think some flexibility in being able to work from home sometimes is important, especially to facilitate childcare issues, and allows many able people to work who couldn’t if it was 100% office based.

Offices were invented for a reason and the internet has only partially changed this.

The spontaneous Friday night pub outing after a bad week is so helpful.

Unless you are struggling with alcoholism. Or have kids to get home to. Or an elderly parent to care for. Or are sick of being sexually harassed in the pub by the barflies. Or the reason for your bad week is one of the colleagues going to the pub. Or you live in a rural village and the last bus home leaves before 6pm. Or are autistic and find loud crowded places a living hell. Or one of your colleagues makes you feel creeped out and you do not want be around him any more than you can get away with and certainly not with alcohol involved.

It's not a coincidence that many of the issues I list affect women more often or more seriously than men. It's like the anti-WFH people really hate women.

Dame Steve Shirley's company "Freelance Programmers" was 99+% female, WFH, and successful back in the sixties, using the overnight postal service that existed back then to send work back and forth. Increasing numbers of tech companies, including big names like Gitlab and Ubuntu makers Canonical, have gone 100% remote. The need for an office is a myth.

TheGuv1982 · 04/09/2023 08:58

Newbutoldfather · 04/09/2023 08:02

I hate the DM, but kind of agree about WFH.

Every employment contract should be about a trade of skills and effort for money and conditions, so if you are so good that your employer still wants you if you WFH, fair enough. However, WFH is not the same as being in the office and has many negatives from an employer’s perspective.

The downside is most apparent for young people at the start of their career. You just can’t informally mentor over Teams effectively. And young people lose out on the social aspect of work, which is also really important. The spontaneous Friday night pub outing after a bad week is so helpful.

I do think some flexibility in being able to work from home sometimes is important, especially to facilitate childcare issues, and allows many able people to work who couldn’t if it was 100% office based.

Offices were invented for a reason and the internet has only partially changed this.

Offices were indeed invented for a reason…to manage and process the paperwork of an organisation.

Modern digital tools negate this need, and have done for decades. However the digital architecture was still required to be on site. Cloud based services, and a greater provision of laptops and other smart devices means that in the majority of cases, it doesn’t really matter where the work is done.

The above doesn’t cover all the benefits of an in person presence, which is why most reasonable people are fully onboard the hybrid train.

Eleganz · 04/09/2023 08:59

FernsInTheFire · 04/09/2023 08:56

I agree, Eleganz. Big dash of hypocrisy too as he disapproves of wfh in general due to the effect he feels it has on the economy, but was proud of his former employer for its perks. The only way I can make sense is that benefits are ok for some people but not if everyone starts wanting them.

We had a really angry argument about this once and the topic hasn’t come up again. Lots of irrational fury. The fact he couldn’t back up what he was saying was making him angrier.

I would just avoid the topic in future. I've found that nothing you can say about this will convince these people such is the nature of the influence the right wing media has over them. I now just politely but firmly shut down older relatives discussion of this.

nettie434 · 04/09/2023 09:00

I'm willing to bet many DM journalists work remotely.

Richard Littlejohn, one of the most anti WFH journalists at the Daily Mail, lives in Florida and works from home, condemning everything happening in England. One journalist wittily suggested that his outraged rantings were probably the best indication that WFH exclusively for too long was probably bad for you.