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Original poster

To think that democracy isn't necessarily the best form of government?

413 replies

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 27/08/2023 01:36

For example, I'm interested in politics and governance and have spent time learning about the topic, yet my vote counts exactly as much as someone who thinks all brown people are rapists or that all women are nothing more than broodmares.

This doesn't sit right with me. Surely we should acknowledge that some opinions are not as valid as others and take steps to ensure that the lowest common denominator isn't represented equally at elections?

OP posts:
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TrishM80 · 27/08/2023 01:48

Yes, when you consider the amount of morons in the population, you're correct.

The best govt would be a panel of highly intelligent, highly educated experts in their respective fields who wouldn't have to worry about the vagaries of not being elected by Bazza and Sharon from Clacton.

OlympicProcrastinator · 27/08/2023 02:45

Oh no no no. This is wrong on so many levels. You don’t realise how many experts in their field are also racist, homophobic bigots with hidden agendas. This reeks of classism. The fact that someone from Clacton called Sharon would be more likely to be a bigot than someone who got a few degrees is so short sighted and ignorant.

Who do you think upholds systems of oppression? I can tell you now it’s the people with the most, not the least power. Medical bias has killed hundreds of black people with ‘expert advice’ being steeped in incorrect racist assumptions. If you are interested in reading around this subject I suggest, “Hoberman, Black and Blue: The Origins and Consequences of Medical Racism.”

We already had the system described above in recent history in the UK where only educated males were allowed to vote. How do you think that worked out for the people?

You are suggesting an Orwellian future where some people ‘are more equal than others’ and want to live in a world where ‘expert’ opinion is taken as gospel without challenge from dissenting voices and the poor and uneducated are assumed to be morally bankrupt.

Telling people they have ‘wrong think’ is a slippery slope that never ends well. I want to live in a society where everyone has a voice, all views can be discussed and challenged out in the open and everyone gets a say.

tescocreditcard · 27/08/2023 03:45

I think democracy is the least bad option.

Would you rather a junta? Or autocracy?

MintJulia · 27/08/2023 03:46

But in the 17th century lots of men took a great interest in politics, and equally, many did not. Yet slavery and sending children up chimneys, and women being their husbands' possessions were all mainstream and accepted.

Government needs people who are seen as extremist as well as middle-grounders, because 1 in 50 of the extremists is the one that drives the greatest change. Yet many will consider that extremist as not worthy of having a vote.

Good government comes from debating the broadest range of ideas, not just the ones you find acceptable.

PretzelKnot · 27/08/2023 03:48

tescocreditcard · 27/08/2023 03:45

I think democracy is the least bad option.

Would you rather a junta? Or autocracy?

Like Winston Churchill said, “democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”

sheworemellowyellow · 27/08/2023 03:49

Is that you, Jacob (Rees-Mogg)?

You fundamentally misunderstand what government is. It’s a representation of the society you live in, all of it.

ichundich · 27/08/2023 03:50

democracy
/dɪˈmɒkrəsi/

noun

  1. a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.
  2. "a system of parliamentary democracy"

People have fought hard for universal voting rights.

It's a terrible idea and the very opposite of "democracy".

Threenow · 27/08/2023 04:25

And who is going to decide just who is "fit" to vote? Who is going to decide just who "the lowest common demoninator" is? Based on your OP I wouldn't think you fit to vote.

Yoghurtpotsatdawn · 27/08/2023 05:07

I get what you’re saying but I agree it’s the least bad option.

To me, brexit was the proof that you can’t trust people to make considered and well thought out choices. You can’t trust them to choose the most talented singer on X Factor, let alone decide the future of the entire country.

Incredibly intelligent people can still be emotionally illiterate, have little understanding of the lives of those around them and can be bigoted, racist , misogynistic, immoral loons, as we very often get to find out. Just as it’s hard to make a decision as to who should vote, I think it’s just as hard to decide who should get to be in charge of those making the decisions.

What are your thoughts on what we might have in the place of the present system ?

Sparklesocks · 27/08/2023 05:08

Surely it’s a slippery slope to categorise which members of society should or shouldn’t be allowed to vote? As vile as racism/sexism/homophobia etc is, it’s not necessarily easy to weed out which viewpoints should bar you from voting.

daisychain01 · 27/08/2023 05:17

Surely we should acknowledge that some opinions are not as valid as others and take steps to ensure that the lowest common denominator isn't represented equally at elections?

Who's "we" in your system? Who'll do the choosing? Who gets to say what's acceptable and what's not valid?

you may not like democracy but don't throw the baby out with the bath water or we could end up being governed by the Taliban, a Communist regime or a Fascist Junta. Hmm not so clever huh?

mdinbc · 27/08/2023 05:20

I think this is why education is so important.

You run down a slippery slope when deciding who is fit to make decisions about leadership. If not democracy, then what do you suggest; back to monarchy assisted by well-educated, land owning lords?

WandaWonder · 27/08/2023 05:40

Op how would you actually put it into practise?

And who or how would any criteria be decided about what is acceptable or not? Such as If a decision is made that is better for the environment but 100 people lose their jobs which 'wins'?

curaçao · 27/08/2023 05:47

Who gets to choose which opinion s are more valid .You seem to be assuming you would be one of those judged as fit to vote.What if you weren't? Would you still support your system?

Breezycheesetrees · 27/08/2023 05:55

I do kind of agree with you OP. I think the other side of democracy needs to be an engaged, literate, well-educated populace, and maybe you don't "deserve" to participate unless you're going to uphold your end of the deal. It also needs a genuinely free media though, which is not able to be exploited by those in power to achieve their own agendas. Without those things (engaged electorate, free press) you get a shit-show like Brexit.

Unfortunately though, as others have pointed out, any system which regulated democratic participation based on competence would be undemocratic and open to abuse.

Newrumpus · 27/08/2023 06:35

YAB totally U.

StrictlyAFemaleFemale · 27/08/2023 06:47

You need a free and independent press too - in Danish the press is called the watchdog of democracy.

BibbleandSqwauk · 27/08/2023 06:56

I get where the OP is coming from...the ignorance of many adults around some basic facts of economics and even what each party really stands for is shocking. Maybe at some absolutely basic level prior to a GE there should be some form of mandatory online quiz with a pass mark before you can participate (could also be done on paper at local libraries etc to facilitate inclusion). We don't let people drive a car if they can't read road signs and master the controls... but we just assume that an 18yo has certain understanding of political issues. I teach them ..many don't have a clue. 😳

GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal · 27/08/2023 07:01

TrishM80 · 27/08/2023 01:48

Yes, when you consider the amount of morons in the population, you're correct.

The best govt would be a panel of highly intelligent, highly educated experts in their respective fields who wouldn't have to worry about the vagaries of not being elected by Bazza and Sharon from Clacton.

I don't like this idea, but I did wonder if a system similar to jury service would work. No elected MPs, instead every adult is eligible to be called up to serve as a member of parliament representing the area they live in for a period of, say, five years.

Your job or business would be protected whilst you serve, and you're paid a basic, modest salary and provided accommodation whilst away from home. You can defer, if it's really bad timing, or have yourself declared exempt if there's a very good reason why you can never serve; but otherwise, off you go and serve your country.

Once you've served, you can be called up again, and you go back to your normal life afterwards - so the decisions you've helped make whilst you serve are ones you personally will have to live with the consequences of.

I do wonder if that might be a better system.

GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal · 27/08/2023 07:03

This should read: once you've served, you can never be called up again."

Why don't we get the edit function on the app?!

110APiccadilly · 27/08/2023 07:04

GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal · 27/08/2023 07:01

I don't like this idea, but I did wonder if a system similar to jury service would work. No elected MPs, instead every adult is eligible to be called up to serve as a member of parliament representing the area they live in for a period of, say, five years.

Your job or business would be protected whilst you serve, and you're paid a basic, modest salary and provided accommodation whilst away from home. You can defer, if it's really bad timing, or have yourself declared exempt if there's a very good reason why you can never serve; but otherwise, off you go and serve your country.

Once you've served, you can be called up again, and you go back to your normal life afterwards - so the decisions you've helped make whilst you serve are ones you personally will have to live with the consequences of.

I do wonder if that might be a better system.

Show quote history

I've long thought something like this might be a good replacement for the House of Lords.

110APiccadilly · 27/08/2023 07:08

The thing is, OP, I bet you also hold at least one view that many people would disqualify you for. Your system simply doesn't work, because whoever gets to choose the electors is also a fallible human, with biases and prejudices. And if you yourself think you are above bias and prejudice, all you are is not very self aware. No one is free from these things entirely.

CurlewKate · 27/08/2023 07:12

Democracy is the worst form of government-apart from all the others, as someone said.

Lonicerax · 27/08/2023 07:15

I think it’s more our combative style where left and right take opposing positions. So extreme!

However I heard Ken Clarke saying this was the best method as one holds the other to account -and as I’m in Scotland and see what a mess a one party dominated Gov can make I think I agree.

Apparently a coalition Gov can just argue and nothing gets done.

StefanosHill · 27/08/2023 07:17

I’m with majority yabu

I’d be more concerned about people who think their view should carry more weight in a vote