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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

U.K. first womb transplant

719 replies

VestaTilley · 23/08/2023 10:29

The BBC has reported today that the first womb transplant has taken place in a hospital in England. A 40 year old woman donated her womb to her sister, hopefully enabling her to have children.

AIBU to be concerned about a potential dystopian future where women’s reproductive organs are harvested like car parts?

Journalists are treating this like it’s a positive, with few questions being asked about how the donor is recovering, how the foetus (if the recipient does conceive) will fare if the woman has to continue taking immuno suppressive drugs? Whether there is increased miscarriage risk?

Transplants are supposed to be life saving, not about wish fulfilment. Apparently 10 brain dead women are being lined up for future donation!

To me this all seems part of a bigger picture of surrogacy, synthetic embryo creation (reported earlier this year) and a drive to disassociate women from reproduction and the biology of our sex.

Am I alone in being bothered by this? I wish journalists would look more at the bigger societal picture.

Link here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66514270

The surgeons performing the womb transplant

Woman receives sister's womb in first UK transplant

The 34-year-old hopes to now become a mum as older sister donates her womb in pioneering transplant.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66514270

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
SunsetBeauregarde · 23/08/2023 15:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 15:20

There was a paper. And a survey. Then a paper based on that survey. There have been other papers by other researchers.

No one is disputing they did a study - I’m not sure of your point here?

EsmaCannonball · 23/08/2023 15:28

People are already kidnapped for the organs. IIRC, it's usually people from Central Asia who are told they are going to Turkey for work. If they are lucky they wake up missing a kidney and are bunged a bit of money (a fraction of what the recipient has paid), if they are unlucky they have more than just a kidney harvested and they don't wake up at all. Some desperate people knowingly sell a kidney.

In India most kidney recipients are men but most living kidney donors are women. Donor and recipient must be related and it is illegal for money to change hands. However, with large extended families the two parties could be very distantly related, with money being offered as an incentive behind the scenes, and there are clinics who are willing to break the rules and offer a trade in kidneys. Financial, familial and cultural pressures mean women are seen as more expendable than the men. There will definitely be women pressured into selling their uteruses.

Frydaycryday · 23/08/2023 15:28

JudgeAnderson · 23/08/2023 10:36

I don’t really see this as different to any other organ transplant really

I do. Other organ transplants are to keep you from dying or going blind.

Well as a donor you can decline specific organs.

I have no problem with anyone using my womb after I clearly no longer need it.

SunsetBeauregarde · 23/08/2023 15:32

EsmaCannonball · 23/08/2023 15:28

People are already kidnapped for the organs. IIRC, it's usually people from Central Asia who are told they are going to Turkey for work. If they are lucky they wake up missing a kidney and are bunged a bit of money (a fraction of what the recipient has paid), if they are unlucky they have more than just a kidney harvested and they don't wake up at all. Some desperate people knowingly sell a kidney.

In India most kidney recipients are men but most living kidney donors are women. Donor and recipient must be related and it is illegal for money to change hands. However, with large extended families the two parties could be very distantly related, with money being offered as an incentive behind the scenes, and there are clinics who are willing to break the rules and offer a trade in kidneys. Financial, familial and cultural pressures mean women are seen as more expendable than the men. There will definitely be women pressured into selling their uteruses.

I agree - it’s unfortunately the cost of all transplants that have been developed, there I’ll be exploitation as a result.

Luckily, the percentage of infertile women who have a mechanical reason for infertility whos chances of conceiving could be improved by womb transplants is vanishingly low compared to endocrine causes, so the demand for these transplants will be low overall, as indicated by how few procedures have actually been carried out in the last 10 years.

Frydaycryday · 23/08/2023 15:33

MissKittyFantastico84 · 23/08/2023 15:09

Hello! Person with a life-saving kidney transplant here!

Few points:

  • immunosuppressant therapy doesn't cause birth defects. There is one medication called MMF which does, but it can be easily replicated with those that don't, should you wish to become pregnant.
  • if you have dramatically removed your name from the organ donor list in response to this, I truly hope you never have to experience the devastating slow decline of one of your vital organs, as your body slowly dies in front of you and your only hope is making it to the top of a list with a multitude of deciding factors in your way. Best of luck!
  • I don't know what horror films you've been watching, or urban legends you've been hearing around the campfire, but people don't wake up in ice baths with harvested organs.
  • all organ donations come from brain dead donors. If they were dead, their organs would be useless. Although they're working on this - yay science!
  • mumsnet is fucking mental sometimes.

Incorrect.
Look up dbd and dcd donors.
Not all are brain dead.

Squiblet · 23/08/2023 15:36

Whatthechicken · 23/08/2023 15:23

On the register you can either tick Donate all my organs and tissue or you can choose. The list to choose from includes: heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, corneas, pancreas, tissue, small bowel. Did these women understand that if they ticked all it would include the reproductive organs? I think many may assume that ‘all’ would include all in the above list. If you tick all, does it mean they could harvest eggs too?

As several people have said upthread, the organ donor agency has confirmed that womb donation is completely separate from the ordinary registered donation system, which is why "reproductive organs" does not appear on that list.

You can remove yourself from the list if you like, to make a point (albeit at high cost to others) -- but if you stay on, you are not opening yourself up to possible uterine donation.

FWIW I'd be quite happy for mine to go to a woman who needed it.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 23/08/2023 15:36

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 23/08/2023 15:28

@MissKittyFantastico84

Women are already coerced and manipulated into hysterectomies. How much more will this happen if there is a market for the organ itself?

https://www.gaonconnection.com/news-in-english/women-farmers-in-beed-maharashtra-are-being-forced-into-removing-their-wombs--45798

extract

The wombless women of Beed have emerged as talking points in the national and international media, in Maharashtra legislature and the Parliament. But Beed is only the tip of the iceberg. Wombless women are scattered across villages in India

Are women bearing the brunt of deepening rural distress in India?

Beed, a poor, backward, drought-phone patch of Maharashtra, suggests so. The district is in the spotlight in the wake of allegations of thousands of women being coerced into having hysterectomy – a surgical procedure to remove the uterus or the womb – by unscrupulous doctors.

Hysterectomies - elective surgeries recommended for women usually above a certain age (35 and older) to treat symptoms like uterine firboids and post-menopausal bleeding - are not illegal. But the poignant stories coming out of Beed are telling examples of continuing medical malpractices and the rampant misuse of hysterectomy in India.

During the sugarcane-cutting seasons, women in thousands from backward patches like Beed move to the more affluent 'sugar belt' of Maharashtra for work. Contractors and private doctors exploit their vulnerability and lack of awareness. They threaten the women by saying they won't be hired if they take time off during menstruation. Such is the plight of poor village women in these parts that they let themselves be pressured into parting with their wombs by unscrupulous doctors.

The uncomfortable truth is that there is a thin line between 'voluntary' and 'coercive', in this context. The relationship between doctor and patient is unequal. The women are too unaware and too scared to ask questions or seek better medical advice. So, the savagery of 'voluntary' hysterectomy. Contractors insist they don't force the women to have a surgery; rather, it is their families who make that choice for them.

Maharashtra Health Minister Eknath Shinde admits that 4,605 hysterectomies have taken place in Beed district alone in the past three years.

The wombless women of Beed have emerged as talking points in the national and international media, in Maharashtra legislature and the Parliament. The National Commission of Women is also concerned. The local administration has started taking corrective measures – no hysterectomies can now take place in Beed without prior authorisation from the district administration.

But Beed is only the tip of the iceberg. Wombless women are scattered across villages in India.

Illegal mass hysterectomies have been reported from not only Maharashtra, but also several other states – Chhattisgarh, Karnataka, Rajasthan, Bihar, Andhra/Telengana in recent years.

Reasons vary. However, there is a common thread in the stories of the wombless women – poverty and acute vulnerability. Poor and uneducated women working in the informal sector, often from landless families, are targeted for womb removal when they have minor ailments.

Continues: Women farmers are being forced into removing their wombs

Why are women being coerced into removing their wombs?

During the sugarcane-cutting seasons, women in thousands from backward patches like Beed move to the more affluent ‘sugar belt’ of Maharashtra for work. Contractors and private doctors exploit...

https://www.gaonconnection.com/news-in-english/women-farmers-in-beed-maharashtra-are-being-forced-into-removing-their-wombs--45798

Cynicaltheorist · 23/08/2023 15:43

FWIW I'd be quite happy for mine to go to a woman who needed it.

She doesn't need a transplanted uterus. She might want one but that's different.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 15:45

They didn’t lie when asked.

Yes they did. They said:

"We will never even consider performing womb transplants in men. This is not possible, legal, nor do I think there is a demand for it."

They may believe TWAW when they answer no to "men" but it's only illegal because men are male, and that includes "trans women", their gender identity notwithstanding.

They think it's "legally impermissible" to exclude them in a scenario where it was feasible to implant wombs into men. They don't actually think it's "impossible" and they are carrying out a study to see what the demand is, so they don't think there is none at all.

So his statement contained three lies. As well as the one where he answers that no they aren't carrying out this specific questionnaire on survey monkey. When they were.

Naunet · 23/08/2023 15:46

Frydaycryday · 23/08/2023 15:28

Well as a donor you can decline specific organs.

I have no problem with anyone using my womb after I clearly no longer need it.

And are you happy for them to use it for research on how to make implants into men possible? Not all donations are used for transplant.

SunsetBeauregarde · 23/08/2023 15:47

Cynicaltheorist · 23/08/2023 15:43

FWIW I'd be quite happy for mine to go to a woman who needed it.

She doesn't need a transplanted uterus. She might want one but that's different.

No one needs my skin or my corneas either or technically even my kidney given that dialysis is a thing - I’d still give all of it willingly.

’Carve me up and sell me for parts’ as my lovely Dad put it Grin

mumda · 23/08/2023 15:47

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 23/08/2023 15:47

ComtesseDeSpair · 23/08/2023 10:39

If somebody has agreed to donate all their organs then I don’t think it makes any difference whether it’s their heart, their lungs or their womb being “harvested.” It’s their choice.

“Pregnant blokes” isn’t going to happen because men have completely different endocrine systems and physiologies. These womb transplants have only been possible because they’ve been able to connect them up to the correct anatomy and systems. Putting a womb into a man would be like transplanting a heart in place of somebody’s kidneys and expecting it to perform the same function.

Some in the “medical profession” would beg to differ with you @ComtesseDeSpair https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/05/11/trans-uterus-transplant-pregnancy/

Doctor plans pioneering womb transplant that could let trans women carry children

A doctor is planning a womb transplant to allow a trans woman to carry a baby in an undertaking that could revolutionise trans healthcare.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/05/11/trans-uterus-transplant-pregnancy/

Squiblet · 23/08/2023 15:49

Cynicaltheorist · 23/08/2023 15:43

FWIW I'd be quite happy for mine to go to a woman who needed it.

She doesn't need a transplanted uterus. She might want one but that's different.

If it would make her happy, and I'm dead anyway, what does it matter? I really like the thought of making someone's life better, and my death not being a complete waste.

Megifer · 23/08/2023 15:49

"If you have dramatically removed your name from the organ donor list in response to this, I truly hope you never have to experience the devastating slow decline of one of your vital organs, as your body slowly dies in front of you and your only hope is making it to the top of a list with a multitude of deciding factors in your way. Best of luck!"

It probably goes without saying that surely we all hope others don't have to experience the decline of their organs (barring murderers etc possibly).

Must admit I've genuinely never come across a donor recipient who has felt this way, they usually are the first (and can be quite vehement about it too!) to understand organ donation has to be completely non-transactional with no conditions attached as thats a slippery slope to e.g. starting to determine who might be more deserving morally etc.

Anyway, yes I also hope I'm never in that position but if I am its absolutely right I wouldn't be less entitled due to my (current) non-donor status.

Appreciate your best wishes. Hope you continue to be in good health too!

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 23/08/2023 15:50

Butritobaby · 23/08/2023 10:45

YABU, but this is MN where lines of batshit people will line up to agree

there is nothing official about ‘brain dead’ women being lined up to donate.

this is hysteria, plain and simple.

I hope your life gets more meaning so you can stop being worried about shit like this at some point.

Brain dead people are the only people who can donate any organs though- you have to be on life support

justteanbiscuits · 23/08/2023 15:50

SunsetBeauregarde · 23/08/2023 15:25

They didn’t lie when asked.

I have explained why this kind of research was undertaken.

No one, at any point, has insinuated you’re anything other than an intelligent person asking good questions. Showing you where you’ve misunderstood something is not calling you thick, there is no point discussing these kinds of topics if you start from a position of misunderstanding. Misunderstanding is no indicative of a lack of intelligence or education, but correcting a misunderstanding relies on you actually wanting to understand better. If you’re happier with ignorant outrage.. I guess crack on?

Your response is excellent

CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 23/08/2023 15:51

Frydaycryday · 23/08/2023 15:28

Well as a donor you can decline specific organs.

I have no problem with anyone using my womb after I clearly no longer need it.

Would you be happy to give it to this trans identifying man, who wants a womb so he can be the first man to have an abortion, I wonder….?

Man Wants Uterus So He Can Be First "Trans-Woman" To Abort A Baby

Like and subscribe for the best pro-life content! ________Follow Live Action:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/liveactionorg/Facebook: https://www.faceboo...

https://youtu.be/1wR6xI_TQAU

SunsetBeauregarde · 23/08/2023 15:51

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 15:45

They didn’t lie when asked.

Yes they did. They said:

"We will never even consider performing womb transplants in men. This is not possible, legal, nor do I think there is a demand for it."

They may believe TWAW when they answer no to "men" but it's only illegal because men are male, and that includes "trans women", their gender identity notwithstanding.

They think it's "legally impermissible" to exclude them in a scenario where it was feasible to implant wombs into men. They don't actually think it's "impossible" and they are carrying out a study to see what the demand is, so they don't think there is none at all.

So his statement contained three lies. As well as the one where he answers that no they aren't carrying out this specific questionnaire on survey monkey. When they were.

Yes you’re will fully not understanding - that statement is correct. It’s factual. No one has considered transplanting a womb into a man and he has also gone a step further there and said he personally will never consider doing it. They have conducted preliminary research into the possibility of it in the least effortful way they can (a survey) to satisfy the criteria of their research grant.

Again, the statement is not a lie. Studying something does not mean you’re considering doing it, looking into it or in any way supporting it. Again again, nipple tassels for toddlers.

SunsetBeauregarde · 23/08/2023 15:52

CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 23/08/2023 15:51

Would you be happy to give it to this trans identifying man, who wants a womb so he can be the first man to have an abortion, I wonder….?

Wondered when this would pop up. This is a single (fairly crackers) person making an inflammatory statement for clout on the internet. Let’s not pretend it’s more than that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 15:52

Anyway, we will have to agree to differ, @SunsetBeauregarde because I don't see the point of this back and forth any more.

This womb charity and several of the surgical team in the operation which is the subject of the OP carried out preliminary research and fact finding into whether male uterine transplants were something which could be considered for MTF. One of the senior researchers also lied about whether they were interested in this when asked.

I've linked to the thread and people are free to decide themselves to read it and what to think.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3605548-Imperial-College-Womb-Transplant-Survey-Redux

You don't think it's worthy of note, I do. That's fine.

Toddlerteaplease · 23/08/2023 15:53

UsernameNotAvailableNow · 23/08/2023 10:35

I read that article and immediately went to update my organ donation so they can’t take my tissue. It was the only option that I figured covered reproductive organs. I’ve also told DH.

I can absolutely envisage a future where we’re harvested for our reproductive organs.

Just tried and you can't update that one!

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