U.K. first womb transplant

[VestaTilley]

The BBC has reported today that the first womb transplant has taken place in a hospital in England. A 40 year old woman donated her womb to her sister, hopefully enabling her to have children.

AIBU to be concerned about a potential dystopian future where women’s reproductive organs are harvested like car parts?

Journalists are treating this like it’s a positive, with few questions being asked about how the donor is recovering, how the foetus (if the recipient does conceive) will fare if the woman has to continue taking immuno suppressive drugs? Whether there is increased miscarriage risk?

Transplants are supposed to be life saving, not about wish fulfilment. Apparently 10 brain dead women are being lined up for future donation!

To me this all seems part of a bigger picture of surrogacy, synthetic embryo creation (reported earlier this year) and a drive to disassociate women from reproduction and the biology of our sex.

Am I alone in being bothered by this? I wish journalists would look more at the bigger societal picture.

Link here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66514270

Perhaps if enough women remove ourselves from the list, they will think again about allowing us to opt out or uterus donation.

They can have anything else but not that.

Fact is, as its an opt out system, only busy body, culture warrior types will opt out, most like me who don't give a shit will do nowt...so its safe to say organ donation supply remains good following the change.

I agree with you both. I doubt there have been long term studies on the health of any children from these procedures eg cancers. I would be terrified of being pregnant if I had a womb transplant as I would find it very hard to justify a pregnancy on lots of drugs to satisfy my needs. And I would have thought unlike another organ transplant, a womb transplant failing is going to affect the baby’s health much more immediately than the mother’s.

When I was pregnant, I took care to not eat certain things and didn’t drink alcohol. I felt bad having paracetamol! So I know I wouldn’t and couldn’t do this.

No, they don’t specify that the dead women are all ready and lined up, you’re correct.
I wonder why though, that they anticipate there will be, literally, a 100% increase in ‘willing’ donors who are dead as opposed to alive. This isn’t the case in transplants as a whole. Assuming circulatory death means this particular type of transplant (and presumably others) is not viable, taking the brain death figure for 2021/22, there were more living donors than brain death donors. Even taking all dead donors in to account for 2021/22, there wasn’t a 100% increase in figures over and above living donors. So I wonder why the disparity?
Do they think women will be generally more opposed to uterus transplantation as living donors, or do they think it is too risky for the living donors, the expense (the thought that NHS human resources, theatre time, ongoing care will only ever be used for free and/or at times when not being used for other patients for every single time this procedure is carried out in the foreseeable future, is not realistic), or is it something else? None of the options fill me with confidence.

Great news!
And if they change the opt out form more will go back on it 👍

That would hardly be likely to ensure that their names are included in footnotes of medical history though.

@Butritobaby no, but they will be using a theatre where other operations can be carried out, using a bed which could be used for other patients etc.

I have reservations, but some of the posts on this thread are completely mental.

1. Corneas and faces aren’t vital organs and are transplanted to improve quality of life, so acting like transplants are only for life saving treatment is simply not true. There are many example of transplants being performed to improve QOL
2. The NHS had nothing to do with this operation and there is no indication it will ever offer this
3. Its not new
4. No one is making any suggestion that men will receive wombs. This is because medically that’s a nonsense and if the anti trans brigade took some time to understand their own biology given they’re so obsessed with it, they’d know this.
5. removing a womb does not trigger menopause, removing ovaries does.
6. ALL dead donor transplants are conducted while a donor is brain dead and still technically alive, so ‘lining up brain dead women to steal their wombs’ is exclamatory nonsense.
7. No one is going to kill you and steal your womb - these transplants have been performed for almost 10 years and if you think people will be more desperate for a womb than they are for eyes or kidneys and therefore would kill for one, then you’re reinforcing why womb transplants are a step forward to help infertile women.
8. Womb transplants will not help the vast majority of infertile couples. There are very specific, mechanical reasons for infertility that a womb transplant might overcome, but the absolute majority of infertility issues are endocrine and not mechanical in nature, hence why even though these transplants have been available for years around the world, there has been very few actually performed.

There are very legitimate reasons to find surrogacy unpalatable and many fronts we as feminists have to be fighting right now. Spouting utter, utter bollocks in response to a consensual operation between 2 women to help one of them have a child; an operation I’ll add that YOU DID NOT PAY FOR because it makes you feel a bit icky is misogyny.

A few years back the lead surgeon was asking males if they'd be interested. See the thread from the time.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3605548-Imperial-College-Womb-Transplant-Survey-Redux

Try telling that to the trans lobby. Then duck for cover from the incoming hail of abuse.

Great post @SunsetBeauregarde

No one is making any suggestion that men will receive wombs. This is because medically that’s a nonsense.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong about the former. The male surgeon, J Richard Smith, was principal lead on a research study to find out the demand for males.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3605548-Imperial-College-Womb-Transplant-Survey-Redux

I also agree with @Cynicaltheorist . Sometimes the healthiest thing is to work to accept the reality of your situation.

I don't see the issue with this, firstly no one in this country at least is forced to give up organs this won't be any different.

If this gives her the chance to carry her own children then amazing for her and it could be a huge break through for so many families.

From the thread I linked, the survey questions:

"Questions 1 to 6 are gathering demographics, such as "Assigned sex at birth" and "Currently assigned sex". Questions 7 to 18 ask about transitioning and existing plans for fathering children.

Question 19 is where the survey starts to gauge opinions. Questions 19 to 21 ask whether the respondent feels that adoption and surrogacy are suitable methods for "M2F transgender women" to have children and whether they are discriminated against more than "natal women" in the processes of adoption and surrogacy.

Questions 22 to 25 move on to Womb Transplantation, asking how much the respondent knows about the procedure, whether they understand the benefits and risks of the procedure and whether they believe the benefits outweigh the risks in "M2F transgender women". Given that the included information recommends harvesting the uterus and vagina from cadavers due to the invasive nature of the surgery, it's quite telling that the survey doesn't ask about feelings towards those trans men who could donate if "they accept the increased risk compared with standard hysterectomy".

Questions 26 to 28 move firmly into validation territory, asking if the respondent believes "that having periods would make me feel like more of a woman", "that having the ability to become pregnant, carry pregnancy and give birth... would make me feel like more of a woman" and "that I would feel more satisfied with my assigned sex after having a womb transplant". I don't know about you, but I feel that using bits of women to make trans women feel very happy has a certain... misogynistic feel to it?

Questions 29 and 30 finally consider the other people who would be involved in the process, namely other trans women. Question 30 asks whether the respondent believes "that if womb transplantation becomes an established treatment for women assigned female at birth who do not have a womb, it should be offered to M2F transgender women once it is proven to be feasible".

Question 31 moves firmly into misogynistic, ^mens rights territory, asking the respondent if they'd be more inclined to freeze their own sperm "to use to create embryos to be used in my womb". Because, even though "the ovaries would not be transplanted", the better-than-the-average-female trans women who have this procedure would just need their sperm and their womb for the miracle of conception to happen!

Question 32 is a shout-out to all the trans women for whom a "front hole" is just not enough, asking if "a transplanted, functioning vagina ... would most likely improve my sex life". It's clear that men wrote this survey, as yet again they've missed out the clitoris completely.

Question 33 channels Shania Twain (would a "transplanted, functioning vagina" ... "make me feel like more of a woman") while question 34 asks if the same would "improve my quality of life".

Question 35 asks how happy the respondent would be to chuck their affirming, validating, functioning vagina in the hospital incinerator "after you have completed your family, to avoid the long-term risks associated with the medications needed to prevent rejection". If only heart / lung or liver transplant patients had the same luxury of dumping their received organs after finishing a marathon or a night out at Wetherspoons! I'm sure it would do wonders for the donor register.

The final question is just as telling as some of the earlier questions. "If, when you are ready to have children, and your partner was a female and had a functioning womb, would you still want a womb transplant yourself for the purpose of having children?" Well, we all know better-than-the-average-female trans women would get pregnant at the mere whiff of a sperm, so of course an untested, uncertain, possibly unsafe medical transplant procedure and drug regime must be far superior to just relying on a member of the sex who actually evolved to conceive and carry babies. Although, the "not applicable - I am sexually attracted to men" option does suggest that a) there should be a question 37 for gay trans women and b) gay couples won't need to worry about finding out that their surrogate is actually a trans woman enjoying their brand-new, up-cycled uterus.

I haven't sent in my replies yet. Any suggestions?"

See for yourselves.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3605548-Imperial-College-Womb-Transplant-Survey-Redux

I volunteer doing aspects of my paid job, so yes. It is quite common for high level surgeons to do free work

@SunsetBeauregarde I assume point 5 is for me - I'm fully aware that removing ovaries triggers surgical menopause, which is immediate and will occur at the time of surgery. But there's plenty of evidence that pre-menopausal women who have a hysterectomy enter menopause more quickly than they might otherwise have done, as it seems to cause ovarian failure, possibly because blood supply to the ovaries is disturbed. This isn't a minor thing.

Well that’s me coming off the donor list, not a chance I want my uterus harvested and implanted in some kind of vain frankensurgery into a man. And yes, we all know that’s not happening yet, and that it’s not as simple as the trans lobby thinks it is, but you’re beyond naive if you think we’re not heading towards trying it.

No it's just the majority of respondents disagree with you.

No amount of sarcastic, sneering comments will change that.

‘To find out the demand’ is VERY different to suggesting men will receive wombs. I could create a survey to establish the demand for nipple tassels for toddlers as part of a research piece on kids clothes, doesn’t mean I will ever get it approved.

Again, using research surveys from survey monkey to try and say ‘this is going to happen’ is just trying to get angry about shit that isn’t happening, and will never happen. There’s really horrible stuff happening all over the place thst could actually benefit from your focus that would actually help women.

Oh look, it’s only been reported today and already it’s all about the men. This is where it’s heading.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/23/womb-transplants-biological-men-pregnant-giving-birth/

Again, using research surveys from survey monkey to try and say ‘this is going to happen’ is just trying to get angry about shit that isn’t happening, and will never happen. There’s really horrible stuff happening all over the place thst could actually benefit from your focus that would actually help women.

This was a survey by Imperial College in London, a prestigious university for science and research, and this same womb transplant charity and some of the surgical team involved in this. Not just a "survey monkey survey" 🙄

Sorry meant to quote you @SunsetBeauregarde

No need to apologise, excellent way to completely miss the point though.