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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Beverly Allitt

103 replies

Sleeepdeprived · 23/08/2023 07:28

The similarities between Beverly Allitt and Lucy Letby are striking. Quite rightly, Lucy Letby received 14 whole life orders and will die in prison, whereas Beverly Allitt received 13 life sentences meaning she only needs to serve a minimum of 30 years in prison. She was sentenced in 1993 so is already eligible for release on parole.

BA was convicted of 4 counts of murder, 5 counts of attempted murder and 6 counts of GBH on babies, using the same methods as LL - injecting insulin and air. Absolutely awful.

AIBU to think her sentence should be changed to a whole life order and she should also be made to die in prison alongside LL?

OP posts:
msmonstera · 23/08/2023 21:03

I read up on BA and her mental illnesses. I just cannot fathom what went wrong with LL. She can't be stupid even if she is a psychopath. So many lives lost and ruined, including her own. I just don't get why.

Theborder · 23/08/2023 21:05

@msmonstera

She wasn’t stupid but she was cocky and arrogant. She felt like she wouldn’t get caught, particularly after the consultants were made to apologise to her.

MrsTerryPratchett · 23/08/2023 21:10

OK I rant about this on every thread about long sentences but I will again. While life tariffs, just like life sentences, have no possibility of rehabilitation or reform. Which is anathema to the justice system. So we shouldn't have them unless we want the justice system to be about revenge, rather than rehabilitation, prevention and safety. I'd rather it was about the latter.

Long sentence don't reduce offending and make juries (very slightly) less likely to find someone guilty. They remove the possibly of rehabilitation therefore making violence inside MUCH more likely. Why bother not stabbing a prison guard when you are locked up for your whole life anyway? Might as well do anything you please. What more can be done?

They make us feel better. Like we are really taking it seriously. Like it in any way means things are made better. But it doesn't. Nothing can bring those children back. We want the sentence to be as severe as we can imagine it. Instead of working to reduce the antecedents of offending. That's too much like hard work and most of us pay attention when there's a really dreadful case, bay for blood, then go back to our lives. When children are killed everyday by poverty, neglect, abuse pollution, and other mundane things.

I've worked with murderers (including multiple murders) and I'd guess that not a one of them differentiated between 30-40 years and a whole life tariff when they offended. They weren't deterred.

I know it makes people feel better to read the news, say they'd like whole life tariffs because that sounds serious, and not think very much about the justice system again until another case makes the front pages. What it actually takes to reduce violence is a serious look at trauma, adverse childhood events, DV and sexual violence and all the other things that make people more likely to offend.

MrsTerryPratchett · 23/08/2023 21:11

And since I'm on the app, I can't edit all the typos. Sorry.

bellac11 · 23/08/2023 21:12

People with MBP are out and above in society/community, you dont get sectioned for that alone

Theborder · 23/08/2023 21:13

@MrsTerryPratchett

I think there’s room for both tbh. Revenge and rehabilitation. The latter being a pipe dream for many prisoners, particularly ones like LL. Some people just cannot be rehabilitated, so I guess it depends on your core beliefs around the concept of rehabilitation.

Theborder · 23/08/2023 21:14

And you’re pissing in the wind with a society that will take trauma seriously. Many people are simply beyond help. Certainly wont happen in my lifetime.

Toddlerteaplease · 23/08/2023 21:14

I thought she was detained on mental health grounds. Wasn't she in a secure hospital?

bellac11 · 23/08/2023 21:15

People serving life sentences have a range of tariffs though, they dont all serve incredibly long tariffs

I think people serving life sentences have a low re offending rate out of all offenders, or something like that

MrsTerryPratchett · 23/08/2023 21:17

bellac11 · 23/08/2023 21:15

People serving life sentences have a range of tariffs though, they dont all serve incredibly long tariffs

I think people serving life sentences have a low re offending rate out of all offenders, or something like that

They do. Having worked with a lot of offenders, it's massively easier to work with someone on a life sentence than a TWOCer. Or a sex offender. Massive rates of reoffending.

Topseyt123 · 23/08/2023 21:19

Toddlerteaplease · 23/08/2023 21:14

I thought she was detained on mental health grounds. Wasn't she in a secure hospital?

She is. She's in Rampton and is unlikely ever to be released.

BriceNobeslovesMurielHeslop · 23/08/2023 21:23

@MrsTerryPratchett sorry, what is a TWOCer?

MrsTerryPratchett · 23/08/2023 21:26

Taking without owners consent.

Car thief.

Galatine · 23/08/2023 21:49

Sleeepdeprived · 23/08/2023 07:36

I can’t fathom that she could be released and walking on our streets anytime from now. Cowardly judge.

She may well be eligible to be considered for parole, but I very much doubt if she will get it. She will die in prison or in Rampton where I believe she now is.

sashh · 24/08/2023 07:10

bellac11 · 23/08/2023 21:15

People serving life sentences have a range of tariffs though, they dont all serve incredibly long tariffs

I think people serving life sentences have a low re offending rate out of all offenders, or something like that

I think that is because so many murders are of family members or domestic situations.

Tracie Andrews (killer of Lee Harvey) has been released, changed her name and got married.

Anothernamethesamegame · 24/08/2023 07:15

Sleeepdeprived · 23/08/2023 07:36

I can’t fathom that she could be released and walking on our streets anytime from now. Cowardly judge.

The thing is there are quite a few horrific people, with horrific offences, out or who will be out of prison at some point. Reality is people cannot be kept in prison for ever. Our prison population has grown massively and is one of, if the the largest, in Europe.

it’s not that I disagree that BA should stay in prison forever. Just that the reality is that there are lots of people with horrific crimes and it would simply not be possible to keep all in prison for their whole lives.

As an extra thought… I suspect there are people being released from prison now that pose much greater risk to the public than BA.

Original poster
Sleeepdeprived · 24/08/2023 07:21

Theborder · 23/08/2023 20:53

@MrsTerryPratchett

They hardly make prisons unsafe when such a tiny minority of prisoners receive them. What was LL? The 4th woman to receive one? Personally I think it’s the best outcome for someone as sadistic as her and it’s easy for you to say that when it wasn’t your child she killed.

Totally agree

OP posts:
Original poster
Sleeepdeprived · 24/08/2023 07:23

MrsTerryPratchett · 23/08/2023 21:10

OK I rant about this on every thread about long sentences but I will again. While life tariffs, just like life sentences, have no possibility of rehabilitation or reform. Which is anathema to the justice system. So we shouldn't have them unless we want the justice system to be about revenge, rather than rehabilitation, prevention and safety. I'd rather it was about the latter.

Long sentence don't reduce offending and make juries (very slightly) less likely to find someone guilty. They remove the possibly of rehabilitation therefore making violence inside MUCH more likely. Why bother not stabbing a prison guard when you are locked up for your whole life anyway? Might as well do anything you please. What more can be done?

They make us feel better. Like we are really taking it seriously. Like it in any way means things are made better. But it doesn't. Nothing can bring those children back. We want the sentence to be as severe as we can imagine it. Instead of working to reduce the antecedents of offending. That's too much like hard work and most of us pay attention when there's a really dreadful case, bay for blood, then go back to our lives. When children are killed everyday by poverty, neglect, abuse pollution, and other mundane things.

I've worked with murderers (including multiple murders) and I'd guess that not a one of them differentiated between 30-40 years and a whole life tariff when they offended. They weren't deterred.

I know it makes people feel better to read the news, say they'd like whole life tariffs because that sounds serious, and not think very much about the justice system again until another case makes the front pages. What it actually takes to reduce violence is a serious look at trauma, adverse childhood events, DV and sexual violence and all the other things that make people more likely to offend.

This is a really interesting post, and something I hadn’t considered before. However, how could LL be rehabilitated? There’s no known trauma, adverse childhood events, DV, or sexual violence in her history. Can some people just be born evil? What do we do with those people?

OP posts:
Messyhair321 · 24/08/2023 07:44

Did Beverly Allit admit her crimes? I mean did she confess ever

Messyhair321 · 24/08/2023 07:58

Sleeepdeprived · 24/08/2023 07:23

This is a really interesting post, and something I hadn’t considered before. However, how could LL be rehabilitated? There’s no known trauma, adverse childhood events, DV, or sexual violence in her history. Can some people just be born evil? What do we do with those people?

Show quote history

No-one is born evil.
And this language as far as I'm concerned should be phased out, angels & devils, evil & sin, just smacks of biblical nuances that just don't exist, or only do in Disney & the bible. We project our own fears, 'evil is out there, we are the good people...'
Obviously not saying that we're all capable of murdering children but when you say that there's no known trauma in the recent case of LL, we don't know that.
It's far more comfortable to say she's just borne bad, rather than actually something happened that may have formed that person, those actions or her later decisions.

Interestingly, I was talking about how well we really know each other, and thinking about the friendship group of LL, they don't believe she is guilty & have cited that they know her character & simply haven't ever seen anything emerge from her that could ever come close to murdering children. I find this really interesting & if she is guilty as she's been found to be, it makes me wonder how well we know anyone.
I find this scary & fascinating. Because in essence it means that really anyone could be anything. You think you know someone.

JanieEyre · 24/08/2023 09:04

MrsTerryPratchett · 23/08/2023 21:17

They do. Having worked with a lot of offenders, it's massively easier to work with someone on a life sentence than a TWOCer. Or a sex offender. Massive rates of reoffending.

Show quote history

Wasn't it John Mortimer who said murderers were generally the gentlest criminals to deal with? Because, with some obvious exceptions, they have got the one person who was really bugging them out of their lives and are basically happy to live the rest of their lives without contemplating harming anyone else.

JanieEyre · 24/08/2023 09:08

Sleeepdeprived · 24/08/2023 07:23

This is a really interesting post, and something I hadn’t considered before. However, how could LL be rehabilitated? There’s no known trauma, adverse childhood events, DV, or sexual violence in her history. Can some people just be born evil? What do we do with those people?

Show quote history

No-one can really be rehabilitated unless they want to be. If LL decided she did want to be rehabilitated, presumably the first step would be for her to explain her motivation, which would then give therapists etc a massive pointer about what needed to be addressed.

Theborder · 24/08/2023 09:21

@Messyhair321

I don’t believe anyone is born evil either. I prefer to use the term sadistic. A real, dark, nasty streak. In my opinion you can’t “rehabilitate” someone to be a nice person. If you’re a bit of a cunt you’ll probably be one forever.

I believe some criminals absolutely can be rehabilitated but there’s this myth that it can be “achieved” with all of them. It’s nonsense, it’s not true. Even with trauma. Therapies and time is still not going to work with a lot of people. People don’t like to hear this or they disagree. Fair enough.

Messyhair321 · 24/08/2023 09:46

Theborder · 24/08/2023 09:21

@Messyhair321

I don’t believe anyone is born evil either. I prefer to use the term sadistic. A real, dark, nasty streak. In my opinion you can’t “rehabilitate” someone to be a nice person. If you’re a bit of a cunt you’ll probably be one forever.

I believe some criminals absolutely can be rehabilitated but there’s this myth that it can be “achieved” with all of them. It’s nonsense, it’s not true. Even with trauma. Therapies and time is still not going to work with a lot of people. People don’t like to hear this or they disagree. Fair enough.

I absolutely agree that not everyone can be rehabilitated, unless they want to be & even then it's not always possible with completely broken people.
Also I absolutely agree that therapeutic input isn't anywhere near advanced enough, this is why the psychiatric system & prisons are full to the brim with people who experience mental health issues.
High time more priority is given to children at the point when something can be challenged or changed. There's simply not enough to catch problems before they become murderous or violent or serious mental illness.

Begs the question though, LL had no known character flaws or history. This is unusual & goes against everything that is known about serial killers. She was reportedly quite a kind and nice person. No mean streak to be seen.

CanOfGerms · 24/08/2023 13:16

MrsTerryPratchett · 23/08/2023 21:10

OK I rant about this on every thread about long sentences but I will again. While life tariffs, just like life sentences, have no possibility of rehabilitation or reform. Which is anathema to the justice system. So we shouldn't have them unless we want the justice system to be about revenge, rather than rehabilitation, prevention and safety. I'd rather it was about the latter.

Long sentence don't reduce offending and make juries (very slightly) less likely to find someone guilty. They remove the possibly of rehabilitation therefore making violence inside MUCH more likely. Why bother not stabbing a prison guard when you are locked up for your whole life anyway? Might as well do anything you please. What more can be done?

They make us feel better. Like we are really taking it seriously. Like it in any way means things are made better. But it doesn't. Nothing can bring those children back. We want the sentence to be as severe as we can imagine it. Instead of working to reduce the antecedents of offending. That's too much like hard work and most of us pay attention when there's a really dreadful case, bay for blood, then go back to our lives. When children are killed everyday by poverty, neglect, abuse pollution, and other mundane things.

I've worked with murderers (including multiple murders) and I'd guess that not a one of them differentiated between 30-40 years and a whole life tariff when they offended. They weren't deterred.

I know it makes people feel better to read the news, say they'd like whole life tariffs because that sounds serious, and not think very much about the justice system again until another case makes the front pages. What it actually takes to reduce violence is a serious look at trauma, adverse childhood events, DV and sexual violence and all the other things that make people more likely to offend.

Most sensible post I’ve ever seen on MN.