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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Would you move to Cape Town?

381 replies

ZarZarGabor · 15/08/2023 17:56

Sorry posting here for traffic.

A good job opportunity has come up to move to Cape Town with work, likely for 3 years or so. We have one pre-school age child and are aware childcare options there are more affordable.

We have spent some time there before and so are alive to some of the issues the country faces including crime, load shedding and bureaucracy. However we still absolutely love the place and want an adventure.

Would be grateful to hear the views of people who have direct experience living there, especially with a young child.

I know lots of people will have a “friend of a friend” who has had bad experiences in South Africa, but I’d really like to hear from people who actually live or have lived there about day to day life for an expat and the sorts of considerations we might have forgotten to factor into (we have already considered visas, healthcare, security, costly mobile phone data etc).

thanks for any advice.

OP posts:
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7
paddleboarder12 · 16/08/2023 08:30

it's 100% my favourite place in the world (minis the bad stuff) there's not a place like it

The same, as soon as a saw a picture of Table Mountain as a DC I knew I had to go there. I absolutely love it, the scenery, the light, feel of the wind, the wine, activities. I’ve never been anywhere as good and I’ve visited 60 countries.

Oliotya · 16/08/2023 08:33

DH used to work there regularly. No chance I would live there. I wouldn't even take my kids on holiday there. It may be beautiful, have some incredible wildlife etc, but rape and armed robbery are common and no way would I invite that risk into my life. I've lived in Africa and traveled the continent extensively, but SA is uniquely terrifying.

ohfook · 16/08/2023 08:38

JamSandle · 15/08/2023 21:01

It's not particularly safe if you're Caucasian.

Massively incorrect statement. Black women are actually the least safe demographic in SA particularly when it comes to sexual violence.

elgreco · 16/08/2023 08:40

Why is the sexual violence against women so bad? If black woman are the greatest victims, surely its not a hangover from Apartheid?

JudgeAnderson · 16/08/2023 08:48

Why is the sexual violence against women so bad? If black woman are the greatest victims, surely its not a hangover from Apartheid?

Mixture of a chauvinistic culture and high general levels of violence and generational trauma.

MorningOclock · 16/08/2023 08:51

Absolutely not, safety is a real issue in South Africa

KimberleyClark · 16/08/2023 08:57

I’m finding this thread both depressing and alarming. We have a holiday to SA, including Victoria Falls, booked for early next year and am now wondering whether we ought to go at all.

hiding5675687 · 16/08/2023 09:05

Bluejeans12 · 16/08/2023 01:07

I would 100% go if I were in your shoes - I made the move from the UK to Cape Town in 2007 - lived there until 2010 and since then go back annually/have property there. I lived in De Waterkant and Green Point, worked in the Durbanville area. Whilst it’s true that crime is an issue, there are a few factors to consider:

  1. A lot of posters seem to be describing ‘SA’ as a world of gated communities whereas if you’re living in the CBD/Camp’s Bay etc it isn’t gated communities as such, rather apartment buildings will either have their own security or will have a security company on call. Personally I would prefer a building with onsite security rather than having to wait for someone to arrive if you feel unsafe for any reason. If you live a bit further out - Blouberg or Tokai for example, you could think about living on a golf estate which is more like a gated community of houses if you prefer more space. Obviously then you’d have to factor in your commute/driving on the motorway, so it’s down to personal preference.
  2. In recent years I have noticed an increase in homelessness and begging in the CBD, however Uber is much more prevalent than before if you want to go a short distance without the car. As a woman I would walk with friends in the CBD at night but not by myself.
  3. Loadshedding is an absolute pain in recent years and shows no sign of abating, so when you’re looking for an apartment check if the building has their own generator.
  4. Violent crime is undoubtedly a massive issue but it’s relative to where you’re moving from - I have lived in cities all my life with varying levels of danger - I am currently in London and there are regular stabbings, shootings, muggings and gang activity in my area. For me, the experiences I have gained from my ties with Cape Town massively outweigh other factors.
  5. Check that your job will pay for the legal fees involved in sorting your work permit, and be mindful this can take a long time (mine took 6 months). Also check if there is a relocation package on both ends if you’re moving for a short-term job.

PM me if you want any other info!

These are all important points. Sea Point is another area with apartments and a beautiful location which looked like it has a lot for kids. Not sure how it is now.

Even with an apartment, I would avoid the ground and first floor because of the potential ease of break in. I also remember guidance not to be really high up in the building in case of fire, as alarms and rescue may be limited.

marangu · 16/08/2023 09:06

KimberleyClark · 16/08/2023 08:57

I’m finding this thread both depressing and alarming. We have a holiday to SA, including Victoria Falls, booked for early next year and am now wondering whether we ought to go at all.

Victoria falls isn’t in SA. It that’s where you want to go book a holiday to Zambia or Zimbabwe! Zambia in particular is beautiful and very safe.

Comedycook · 16/08/2023 09:07

I wouldn't go there if you paid me. I remember a south African girl I worked with went back home for a holiday and came back and told.me how she was carjacked at gunpoint...she was incredibly casual about it.

The high levels of rape terrify me...I don't care how beautiful a country is, I could never enjoy it with that threat hanging over me.

Feel absolutely awful for the women who live there..must be hellish.

marangu · 16/08/2023 09:08

ohfook · 16/08/2023 08:38

Massively incorrect statement. Black women are actually the least safe demographic in SA particularly when it comes to sexual violence.

Was just coming on to say exactly this. Black women are the most vulnerable to violence in SA.

hiding5675687 · 16/08/2023 09:09

KimberleyClark · 16/08/2023 08:57

I’m finding this thread both depressing and alarming. We have a holiday to SA, including Victoria Falls, booked for early next year and am now wondering whether we ought to go at all.

I would as it is an amazing place, but wear seat belts (I am sure you will, but was always shocked to see tourists cram into a van and not strap in on roads that are not the safest) and travel in the day. Be cautious as you approach gates, e.g. don’t stop and get out. Find a secure place to withdraw cash. These last two are such common issues.

KimberleyClark · 16/08/2023 09:12

marangu · 16/08/2023 09:06

Victoria falls isn’t in SA. It that’s where you want to go book a holiday to Zambia or Zimbabwe! Zambia in particular is beautiful and very safe.

I know that. The SA part of the holiday is a cruise, so we’ll be doing our sightseeing in organised excursions, so that’s something from a safety point of view. But we are staying a couple of nights in Cape Town first. I always thought Jo’burg was the really violent part and that Cape Town was ok.

JudgeAnderson · 16/08/2023 09:18

@KimberleyClark honestly you'll be fine if you follow the suggested precautions. Where is your hotel? If it's at the Waterfront, the whole area is heavily guarded to make it safe to wander around.

TurtleCavalryIsSeriousShit · 16/08/2023 09:20

KimberleyClark · 16/08/2023 09:12

I know that. The SA part of the holiday is a cruise, so we’ll be doing our sightseeing in organised excursions, so that’s something from a safety point of view. But we are staying a couple of nights in Cape Town first. I always thought Jo’burg was the really violent part and that Cape Town was ok.

Please don't worry. You will love Cape Town and the cruise.

And Joburg is like any other big city in the world. There are parts that are dangerous and parts that are not. It's a very spread-out city. I don't ever have to go into the deadly dangerous parts. And I don't live in a completely gated community.

KimberleyClark · 16/08/2023 09:20

JudgeAnderson · 16/08/2023 09:18

@KimberleyClark honestly you'll be fine if you follow the suggested precautions. Where is your hotel? If it's at the Waterfront, the whole area is heavily guarded to make it safe to wander around.

Yes it is at the Waterfront. Thanks for that reassurance!

Minfilia · 16/08/2023 09:29

Absofuckinglutely not.

My friends dad was murdered there 3 years ago. It was a gang initiation ceremony and they shot him just to take a white mans gun as a trophy.

Another close friend had to stop to help someone who was shot in the knees in broad daylight straight in front of him.

And an ex SA work colleague told us constant horror stories about the racism towards white people.

These incidents were all in Cape Town!

I do have another colleague with a holiday home there who claims to have had no problems. But not a chance I would risk it.

And as a side note, I dread to think how bad Johannesburg is!

crossstitchingnana · 16/08/2023 09:35

My colleague left as her brother was murdered. I have SA friends; car-jacked when 8 months pregnant, shot for a carton of cigarettes so no.

JudgeAnderson · 16/08/2023 09:44

Yes it is at the Waterfront. Thanks for that reassurance!

Great, perfect base for a couple of days as there are a ton of restaurants, bars, shops and things going on and you can walk around. The Robbin Island tour leaves from there. Beautiful views back over Table Mountain.

Things like organised tours to Cape Point and the penguins, trips up the cable car, wine tours in Constantia or further afield will all be quite safe with tour operators as well and as you're only there for a couple of days you can more than fill your time with that. I hope you have a wonderful time, it's a beautiful and very welcoming place and the vast majority of people are lovely.

notlucreziaborgia · 16/08/2023 09:45

Cape Town is not like any other big city. Yes, you will find crime in any big city of the world, but there is a scale.

Cape Town is the crime capital of South Africa, and it’s the 14th most dangerous city in the world based on homicide rate, and that is currently soaring. It’s got one of the highest, and at times the highest, rate of rape in the world.

Crikeyalmighty · 16/08/2023 09:47

@bladebladebla1 We went to Malta and Gozo this summer - can I just say how much I loved Valletta and Victoria. As a city break (but on the coast) I think Valletta is vastly underrated .

Justgonefishing · 16/08/2023 09:47

KimberleyClark · 16/08/2023 08:57

I’m finding this thread both depressing and alarming. We have a holiday to SA, including Victoria Falls, booked for early next year and am now wondering whether we ought to go at all.

i have worked as a volunteer out there for a few months near cape town and near johannesburg and did some travelling for a few weeks after - absolutely beautiful country and i would still go as a tourist ,you just need to be careful and plan and dont take things for granted. I walked alone, used local buses etc but i was most definitely in the white minority to do so!! However I wouldn't choose to live there as i really value my freedom, and how is living life in a locked gated community and being nervous every time you drive out of your compound a way to live life with young children?

Spacemountain · 16/08/2023 09:59

There is no way I would live there again but if you are going to go you need to prepare yourself.

  1. Make sure the package offered can buy you safety. A safe home in as safe a place as possible.
  2. Health care. You will need private medical aid and you need to make sure you have the best package available. You do not want to ever land up in a government hospital.
  3. Schooling. Children start school later and education standards have fallen. Find a private school and remember not all private schools are equal. Do your research and make sure it is one teaching to international standards. Set money aside for tutoring when you return to catch your child up as required.
  4. Raise your awareness levels. You cannot drive with windows down, doors unlocked, things on seats etc. You will get robbed. At home make sure window's and doors are secure, arm alarms, have gates. When out and about be aware, do not wear flashy jewellery, do not walk about alone at night. At traffic lights leave a gap to the car in front. You might need this gap to get out of a high jacking situation. Be aware at all times.
  5. Harden your heart. Seeing children begging at traffic lights wearing rags and having absolutely nothing is horrifying. Rolling down your windows to hand over money and food will get you hurt/killed. Donate to charities if you can help, do not provide direct help, it is too dangerous.
  6. Bugs and snakes are just more dangerous. Remind your children to use their eyes to look around where they are playing and do not touch insects/animals.
  7. Water is everywhere. Teach them to swim
  8. Dogs are everywhere and are trained and not always friendly. They need to learn to not show fear and be confident and calm around them.

HTH

EnidSpyton · 16/08/2023 10:18

TurtleCavalryIsSeriousShit · 16/08/2023 08:26

Also, I have been stopped 100's of times by Police and have NEVER had to bribe anyone.

But this is exactly the issue.

I am in my late thirties, and spent my entire life living in either London or New York. Huge, busy, multicultural cities, all with their own issues with violence, though nowhere on the scale of South Africa.

I have never in my life been stopped by police.

You have been stopped HUNDREDS of times.

This is the difference in daily life for someone who is not used to living in South Africa.

Police, guards, guard dogs, bars, gates, and so on. This is the background of your life. To you, evidently, it's normal. But to someone coming from outside of South Africa, it's not. It shouldn't be normal. No one should have to live like this. It's deeply sad that so many South Africans do.

I think it's wonderful that you love your life and your country and city. But acting as if South Africa's problems are just like any other country's problems and that someone from the UK can move to South Africa and start living their best life is just irresponsible. I'm sorry, but it is.

It's like people on this thread saying 'but London has violence too.' Yes of course it does. But it's not the kind of indiscriminate violence you will experience in parts of South Africa. The violence in London is largely confined to gangs and disproportionately involves young Black men. It is vanishingly rare for a bystander or for someone not involved in a gang to find themselves caught up in indiscriminate violence in London, and in the UK in general. The same cannot be said for South Africa or specifically for Cape Town. As a regular middle class white woman, every day I could feasibly find myself a victim of violent crime in Cape Town. I could have my car hijacked, I could be held at gun point for my jewellery, I could have my house broken into, I could be raped, I could be kidnapped - the list goes on. All of these are real possibilities, and real possibilities you have to take up headspace thinking about, preparing for and adjusting your life to try and protect yourself against, every single day. As I detailed upthread, my white middle class British friend who worked in a private primary school in Cape Town was held at gunpoint while at work by a gang of armed robbers. I've been a teacher in London for over a decade. How many times do you think I've been held at gunpoint while at work? I think you can guess the answer.

Cape Town for a holiday, spent on the waterfront, is a gorgeous place. Touring wine country, going up to Stellenbosch etc, going out to Simon's Town, going to Robben Island and so on - amazing. I don't regret the time I spent there. South Africa is a gorgeous, gorgeous country. But it isn't safe. It doesn't provide freedom in the true sense of the word for any of its citizens. It is a deeply corrupt, troubled, endemically racist country that I don't think anyone in good conscience should be encouraging someone from a totally different culture to move to and expect a good quality of life. When you're used to it, when it's the background of your life, it's different. When you come from outside, it soon becomes unbearable.

JudgeAnderson · 16/08/2023 10:23

@EnidSpyton actually the crime in Cape Town is not as indiscriminate as that, and does follow a similar pattern to London. Most murders are gang or alcohol related and involve young men.

It is certainly true that non-involved bystanders, "innocent" people for want of a better word, are more likely to be victims of violent crime in South Africa. But there are still risk patterns.

Someone else mentioned about Cape Town's murder and rape statistics being some of the worst in the world and while that is true, these stats are being driven by gang violence on the Cape Flats and poverty in the township/informal settlement areas. It's simply not the case that the same levels of violence are occuring in the affluent areas.

I'm not claiming this makes even the affluent areas as safe as the UK, of course not. But it's not completely random and indiscriminate either.

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