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Original poster

Are we now responsible for FILs debts now he's passed away?

303 replies

DebtAfterDeath · 26/07/2023 22:20

Really sorry, posted in legal but also here as i know traffic is heavier and i am desperate for advice.
FIL recently passed away ( 5 weeks ago).
Today my husband has found a letter from Ovo stating he owes £3600.
We also believe he had other debs and CCJs but we have no idea on the amounts.
My SIL used the Tell us Once service but Citizens Advise told me today they don't notify people he owes money to and that's our responsibility.
His only estate is the £6000 in his bank when he died (which the bank have already sent to SIL and she has split in half with my husband) and a potential £10k life insurance claim. He privately rented and had nothing else, no valuables and so on.
We are really worried that we may get chased up for money and Citizen's Advise have recommend we register his death in The Gazette. It's going to cost £100 to do it (fine). But nobody I'm talking to seems to have heard of this and are saying pretty much just leave it, he didn't own a lot anyway and this is more for people with large estates.
We want to do the right thing I'm just not sure what that is?
Also there is an option on The Gazette to use the forwarding address service so our address doesn't get disclosed but again this doubles the cost of the notice to almost £200 and we aren't sure how necessary it is
We are so clueless, I'd be really grateful for any advice. The lady at Citizen's Advice was lovely but admitted she got all her advice off the internet as it was a new one to her!
Thanks

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
WeetabixTowels · 27/07/2023 13:27

OP I wouldn’t take advice from anyone who lacks basic comprehension skills.

Watchkeys · 27/07/2023 13:30

As I recall you can't just take his money until probate has been settled

Banks usually do hand it over up to their own limits (commonly around £50 000), on production of a death cert and signing an indemnity form. If the SIL signed the indemnity form, she is a) responsible for the estate and its debts and b) has gifted OP's DH some money. The 2 things aren't legally linked. OP's DH has had no dealings with the estate, and therefore cannot be liable for any of it. His sister needs to get clear on what she was meant to do, and ask him for her gift back. If he's in agreement, they can start again and do it properly. If he's not, he can likely, legally, keep the money, as she willingly gave it to him from her own account.

Beautiful3 · 27/07/2023 13:33

His savings should be used for the funeral expenses, and any debts.

budgiegirl · 27/07/2023 14:18

VickyEadieofThigh · 27/07/2023 11:59

Some extremely dodgy advice on probate here! My Dad left no property, but over 6K. We had to apply for probate.

You MUST apply if the estate is over 6K even if there is no property. Please note - the link below is gov.uk

https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate/fees

Some extremely dodgy advice, including yours!

If there's no property, and some uncomplicated, smallish savings (even if over £6000), you are unlikely to need probate. Even if there is property, you may not need probate in certain circumstances.

If you are unsure what to do, it can be worth contacting a solicitor to get some advice - many will just charge by the hour, and you can run through anything you are unsure about with them, at a relatively cheap cost (at least, cheap compared to getting the solicitor to do everything!)

sandyhappypeople · 27/07/2023 15:11

VickyEadieofThigh · 27/07/2023 11:59

Some extremely dodgy advice on probate here! My Dad left no property, but over 6K. We had to apply for probate.

You MUST apply if the estate is over 6K even if there is no property. Please note - the link below is gov.uk

https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate/fees

No you really don’t and I’m not sure why you would have to either? Unless the bank needed you to?

Genevieva · 27/07/2023 15:18

The CAB have really gone down hill sadly. The advice you have received here is correct. You need to find out about this additional £10K life insurance policy and you need to apply for probate. In the meantime, however, it sounds like it would be a good idea to contact any company he had debts, bills or direct debits with to tell them that he has died. This will stop them from trying to pursue him for non-payment.

Blossomtoes · 27/07/2023 15:18

It doesn’t look as if OP needs to worry about probate.

Check if probate is neededContact the financial organisations the person who died used (for example, their bank and mortgage company) to find out if you’ll need probate to get access to their assets. Every organisation has its own rules.
You may not need probate if the person who died:

  • only had savings
  • owned shares or money with others - this automatically passes to the surviving owners unless they’ve agreed otherwise
  • owned land or property as ‘joint tenants’ with others - this automatically passes to the surviving owners

Joint property ownership

Check if you're a joint tenant or tenants in common. Change from joint tenants to tenants in common, or tenants in common to joint tenants

https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership

Genevieva · 27/07/2023 15:21

https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate

There is no legal lower limit on probate. I would interpret it as follows:

  • if there is a life insurance pot then you probably need to
  • if there is only the £6K in the bank you don't.

Applying for probate

Find out if you need to apply for probate to deal with the estate of someone who’s died. Discover how to apply for probate or letters of administration and what to do if there’s no will.

https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate

Catspyjamas17 · 27/07/2023 15:37

The order for dealing with debts is towards the bottom of this page (lots of other useful advice here too).

https://nationaldebtline.org/fact-sheet-library/debts-after-death-ew/

The energy company might not get a look in as an unsecured creditor after the funeral costs are paid for.

Fact Sheet - Debts after death | National Debtline | National Debtline

https://nationaldebtline.org/fact-sheet-library/debts-after-death-ew

sandyhappypeople · 27/07/2023 15:37

Genevieva · 27/07/2023 15:21

https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate

There is no legal lower limit on probate. I would interpret it as follows:

  • if there is a life insurance pot then you probably need to
  • if there is only the £6K in the bank you don't.

probate isn’t subject to “interpretation”! you either need it or you don’t based on certain criteria, if there’s no property and the bank or other financial institutions don’t require it to release funds (banks don’t all have the same criteria) then you DON’T NEED IT!

I wish people on here would stop stating you HAVE to have it, when they don’t actually know! it just causes confusion for the OP.

CurlyhairedAssassin · 27/07/2023 15:38

🙄 I think people should just stop posting now. People are just posting incorrect advice.

No-one here knows anything about this particular life insurance policy. It could very clearly state who the beneficiaries are, and may be able to be paid directly to them. All that could be needed is proof of death. There is no "interpretation" of the legalities. The law is the law and it's very clear - you simply follow it, including checking how the life insurance policy is set up. There is no "probably need to" until this is done.

CurlyhairedAssassin · 27/07/2023 15:40

Quite, @sandyhappypeople . OP should be ignoring a lot of these posts, quite frankly. So for that reason, she should be ignoring all of them, because she now has no idea which are right or wrong.

BadNomad · 27/07/2023 15:45

That's the risk you take when you post on a general subforum on a parenting site, rather than ask someone who is trained to know this stuff.

Genevieva · 27/07/2023 15:47

@sandyhappypeople interpretation is what we do every time we read something or listen to something. I think we are on the same page. Applying for probate gives them the legal status to sort out their father's affairs. That clearly isn't needed for the bank account with £6K in it, but is much more likely to be needed to access a life insurance pot worth in excess of £10K. Note that owning property below the IHT threshold does not automatically mean that probate needs to be applied for.

ThreeLittleDots · 27/07/2023 15:47

The bank and estate administrators (DH and SIL) haven't done anything wrong. They are holding the estate value between them and finding out how to pay debts. Nothing has been spent.

There will be no probate as the estate is tiny, and probably no need for a Grant of Letters of Administration sie to no property to dispose of.

Watchkeys · 27/07/2023 15:48

OP asked one question. The answer is no.

WeetabixTowels · 27/07/2023 16:08

I agree this thread is full of terrible advice and total bullshit.

Ive been accused of being a criminal and advising others to partake in similar criminal activity - and as it turns out neither accusation is even true 🤣 this is what happens when thick and angry people are allowed the freedom to post whatever they like on forums. I’d love to know what you lot get out of doing that? Genuine question? What do you get out of making things up?

Blossomtoes · 27/07/2023 16:18

Genevieva · 27/07/2023 15:47

@sandyhappypeople interpretation is what we do every time we read something or listen to something. I think we are on the same page. Applying for probate gives them the legal status to sort out their father's affairs. That clearly isn't needed for the bank account with £6K in it, but is much more likely to be needed to access a life insurance pot worth in excess of £10K. Note that owning property below the IHT threshold does not automatically mean that probate needs to be applied for.

No it isn’t. All that’s needed for a life insurance policy is the death certificate. I know because we recently claimed on a policy that paid out almost £120k. It was outside the estate for IHT purposes.

WeetabixTowels · 27/07/2023 16:20

Oh and as it turns out, regarding my information about my dad’s pension earlier, having done a little research, I didn’t need to include it in probate. I didn’t break the law.

Ill wait for an apology from @AGovernmentOfLawsAndNotMen @Watchkeys
Or just, ya know, acknowledge you’re wrong?

Anyway OP it’s clear that probate is complicated and people on MN can’t advise you. I’d discount anything you’ve read here and get professional advice. Good luck to you!

Watchkeys · 27/07/2023 16:23

ThreeLittleDots · 27/07/2023 15:47

The bank and estate administrators (DH and SIL) haven't done anything wrong. They are holding the estate value between them and finding out how to pay debts. Nothing has been spent.

There will be no probate as the estate is tiny, and probably no need for a Grant of Letters of Administration sie to no property to dispose of.

It doesn't sound like the 'administrators' are actually acting as administrators, officially, though. It sounds like the bank has released the money and one family member has decided to split the estate without looking into the legalities of dealing with the estate debt(s), or discussing any legalities of splitting the estate.

If the money hasn't been spent, then yes, it's a completely recoverable error, but it doesn't sound like the organised description given here. If it was, OP and her DH wouldn't be feeling worried, and they'd have some understanding from discussing with SIL of how the estate debts were to be dealt with.

RedHelenB · 27/07/2023 16:25

Shinyandnew1 · 26/07/2023 22:23

I thought any debts came out of the estate, so I’m surprised the bank released his money straight to family.

They might if they thought it was to pay the funeral.

ThreeLittleDots · 27/07/2023 16:26

*It sounds like the bank has released the money and one family member has decided to split the estate without looking into the legalities of dealing with the estate debt(s), or discussing any legalities of splitting the estate.

If the money hasn't been spent, then yes, it's a completely recoverable error*

There's no harm done whatsoever. They are the sole beneficiaries and administrators of an intestate estate.

ThreeLittleDots · 27/07/2023 16:28

I’m surprised the bank released his money straight to family

Most banks will release funds to family upon receipt of just the death certificate, as long as the balance is small.

Banks do not know or care about any 3rd party debts.

Watchkeys · 27/07/2023 16:35

RedHelenB · 27/07/2023 16:25

They might if they thought it was to pay the funeral.

Show quote history

The banks don't care about how the estate debts are paid off. They care that someone absolves them of responsibility for it. If SIL has signed the bank's indemnity form, and the bank held below it's own threshold for requirement of a probate form, then most banks will release the money.

Debts are legally meant to come from the estate of the deceased, but it's up to the administrators/executors of the estate to ensure that this happens, not the bank. That's why it's important that administrators inform themselves well prior to giving away/spending the deceased's assets; they're the ones who will be liable, when any debts get chased. And it can take them a long time for creditors to start chasing. I wouldn't have wanted that hanging over me, it's always best to understand the details from the outset.

The notice in the Gazette is good, OP, to avoid surprises in the future. I think you need to wait 2 months for responses, and if anyone comes after that, they've officially 'missed the boat'.

Watchkeys · 27/07/2023 16:36

ThreeLittleDots · 27/07/2023 16:26

*It sounds like the bank has released the money and one family member has decided to split the estate without looking into the legalities of dealing with the estate debt(s), or discussing any legalities of splitting the estate.

If the money hasn't been spent, then yes, it's a completely recoverable error*

There's no harm done whatsoever. They are the sole beneficiaries and administrators of an intestate estate.

You're right, assuming that SIL hasn't gone on a spending spree. She hasn't dealt with this responsibly so far, or OP and her DH wouldn't be feeling confused.