To think that employers will have to pay more for working in the office roles?

[MrsMarieMopps]

Following on from the poster who is annoyed she will have to come back into the office two days a week, I honestly think this argument will come up again and again.
I have never been able to work from home, apart from the odd day when I had COVID. Worked through the pandemic in an office. I am an NHS employee and need to be in the hospital even if not necessarily clinical.
My trust is now fully back to pre covid 'everyone must come in every day'. I don't disagree with this. We should be in supporting the clinical staff and patients!
This means spending on

• transport (£12 a day for me)
• parking
• childcare including wraparound and school holidays
• food which can be transported. Milk for work, butter for work etc. I was home I could just make something out of what I had at the back of the cupboards
• some have cleaners as they are out the house more.
• some gym memberships are cheaper if you can go off peak. Which I can't.
• contributions to leaving presents, maternity leave, big birthdays. These contributions are presumably are less pressured if not in person.
• sickness. There's many days when you can't pull yourself in to the office, or when you're contagious, but you probably could log in from home. I have defo noticed my friends are rarely 'calling in sick' anymore for their children or themselves but WFH instead.

So whilst I appreciate that not all jobs require an office presence, if I was a job seeker why would I choose one that's not hybrid or working from home, especially nowadays. I feel there is going to have to be some sort of reimbursement for taking on a job which requires you to make all the sacrifices in order to do it. Also can't help noticing that it is generally the lower paid who are having to keep paying all these necessary costs. We don't have people falling over themselves to do jobs in care, retail, hospitality as it is and I think this would really help with adding an incentive. Otherwise why would anyone become an NHS band 2 admin or a cook in a nursing home? Also I'm aware heating costs may be more but that's just one thing and most just put another jumper, my workplace is freezing anyway!

How does that work in the holidays? An 8 year old can’t be left to their own devices all day

Mine did fine from that age.

Out to play with their friends then returning home for snacks and lunch.

Bad weather - playing on devices, watching tv, Leno etc.

@DinnaeFashYersel I live in the inner city, no one sends their eight year out to play.

One HR manager I know is looking at putting the WFHers on a zero hours contract, and treating them as external staff, as although they’re doing their ‘role’ they’re not contributing to staff development, BD, etc etc.

I WFH (hybrid), still have the same after-school/holiday club costs. The only advantage is that I can finish what I'm working on before I collect as I don't have to worry about public transport.

Less transport costs, more utility costs.

Funny how people feel that they can work from home effectively and yet they don't feel that there children can learn effectively and also don't feel that teachers should be allowed the same working conditions (yet don't want them to be paid anymore)...

Thats a ridiculous comparison though, I’m fully adult, know my job inside out, I know my responsibilities and can manage my own time. I don’t need someone to explain what I should be doing and my concentration span is pretty well established.

Children are learning, they need instruction and support to understand the materials, they need to be taught to focus and complete their work, they have yet to learn impulse control. I don’t expect my 10 year old to self manage, I do have that expectation of myself.

It’s not a matter of whether teachers should be allowed the same conditions, it’s whether they can work (ie teach) effectively from home. Where I am teachers can work from home outside of class contact time which, for obvious reasons, needs to be in person. Delivering professional training is part of my job role, oddly enough my working conditions are the same - I can work from home unless I’m delivering training.

Not a higher wage, but should certainly be able to claim expenses - for energy bills at home, and for transport if you're working in the office.

Aged 8 out with friends and no adult supervision? It’s not the 1970s any more, that’s neglectful.

No it isn't.

OK, tell me why it is (a) safe and (b) morally acceptable for them to be ignored by their parents all day?

Do you think parents were neglectful in the 70s then?

Yes, but they were not called out on it because it was socially acceptable.

Same way many parents smoked in their houses and cars and made racist and homophobic remarks. Times have moved on, standards have changed.

@WomblingTree86 there was significant sexual abuse and horrific accidents in the 70's and before. Stats show this.

It really is neglectful.

Childcare is not a working from the office cost. It's a working cost. If you are looking after children you are not working and if you are working you are not looking after children.

@Thewarrioress so all these people who nip out to do the school run and then log back in, they're all fraudulent yes?

What evidence is there that children were sexually abused because they were playing outside unsupervised? I'm not sure that pedestrians were more likely to get run over either because there were very few cars in most residential roads. Nowadays, it depends on where the children are playing. For example, I live in a cul de sac at the end of a long road. There are very few cars and I don't think 8 year olds playing outside are going to get run over or sexually abused.

I can see that, yes. I don't envy teachers at all & I do think teachers and many others deserve a lot more pay and recognition, regardless of whether or not wfh is more attractive for many workers etc. I can see how you as a teacher would get resentful.

It is true that wfh people nip out for things, and I may not be able to ease your resentment but it happened before Covid too. Instead of leaving the spare bedroom to get a donut at the bakery, we'd previously just nip out from the office to get a treat. The same would go for doctors appointments - we'd get to the office later or leave earlier, but yes, it didn't really happen during the day. Even before Covid people didn't take time off (as in annual leave) for GP appointments etc.

I wouldn't get too hung up on these things - the biggest advantage really is that many people are no longer commuting two hours a day (one our each way), so it is less stress. I think this is absolutely something to become resentful over, but again - teachers and many other professions need to be valued more regardless of whether or not wfh has become a thing. What if for some reason we revert back to working from an office - you wouldn't be willing to take a pay cut then. You'd get paid for your skills to teach, not because someone else is working from an office.

And people actually leave their wfh roles for a more office based job for a career opportunity or a significant pay bump. I am fully aware I am not guaranteed to be able to wfh for the rest of my life and it could change next month if the CEO decides he no longer supports it.

In my organisation that is done with prior consent of the employer and only for older children who need no interaction at home until the end of the working day, or perhaps where there is a non working parent at home with a baby and the other parent goes to pick up the older child.

Of people don’t have permission then they can’t eg refuse a meeting over school run time.

Aged 8 out with friends and no adult supervision? It’s not the 1970s any more, that’s neglectful

Actually mine started playing out at 6. I live in Scotland and we still let our kids out to play here.

I will tell my neighbours- police officer on one side and Director of Social Work on the other side - whose kids also play out that a person on Mumsnet thinks they are being neglectful 😂😂😂

The other side to that coin is that if you're in the office and you take an unforeseen call that is confidential/sensitive (e.g. HR issue) you have to rush round trying to find an empty room to take it in.

My friend works in an in demand role in a specialist industry with a full time in office policy and they simply can’t recruit. He says people ask re wfh policy and don’t proceed.
If all similar employers are offering hybrid or full wfh then they just can’t compete.

@MrsMarieMopps because we are back office roles. I put in my calendar for school runs, music lessons, etc. I tell my team what it is and I ask them to move meetings if it clashes with my school run days. Same with DH and we share pick up and drop off. We have office day once a week but I don’t have to go in if it clashes with something with the children. Other team members will happily say they got car service, doctors appointments, plumbers, waiting for furniture delivery and all sorts. As for disturbance from team calls, we regularly have cats.

You will find back office roles are much more like this because we aren’t client facing. We are software developers by the way so not minimum wage workers. More the type that earns over the ‘high wage’ threshold referred to in another thread here.

You might be shocked to know higher wage roles have more flexibility to fit personal stuff in the day.

But if you've never been able to work from home and absorbed the cost of going to work which is infact just life, why now do you think you should be paid more for what is effectively the status quo?

Working is not why costs have increased and employers shouldn't have to foot the bill for COL crisis as their costs have also increased.

Oh we don’t do school runs everyday which I forgot to say. But if it’s a late date at school there is no school bus. And we have to drive to some activities if it starts at 5. Then I will start work earlier and finish by 4.30.