To think there is a worrying trend to cancel folk for opinions and thoughts

[ConnieLinggusThe69th]

I'm not saying I agree with the opinions of Roald Dahl (I dont) but I understand if people want to cancel folk for their actions - don't like cancel culture but that seems reasonable somewhat to react to someone's actions

But why the fuck are we extending cancel culture to the thoughts that someone expressed? He hardly evangelised his anti semitic beliefs- he simply held them... but chose to write fiction books... the impact he left on the world was some good stories for most people

Just read they were putting a sign up to apologise for his beliefs in the Roald Dahl museum - he's dead now, how can you apologise post death for someone else's thoughts?!

@hamstersarse
People need to tolerate an opposite opinion to their own, it is part of being a mature person

Would you tolerate the opinion of a man who thought rape should be legal. How about if that man was your doctor?

What about if your male boss was of the opinion that women should be paid less and tweeted that opinion on his personal twitter account. Would you tolerate that?

If not why not?

@NewNameNigel

i could certainly tolerate and vigorously disagree with those opinions.

Presumably the rape man just has an opinion and has not enacted this opinion to become an actual rapist, because then he could be arrested. There are people in the uk that hold this opinion, the fact you don’t hear them doesn’t mean they still don’t think it, I’d rather have the opportunity to hear it and vigorously oppose it, than it go underground.,

As for the boss guy, yeah I’m happy for that to be tweeted, and I’d never work there and presumably no other women would too.

@OCaptain

i didn’t actually express any opinions or thoughts in my post on the ‘hot topics’
I can assure you if I did, my post would be deleted

Tolerate does not mean agree with btw.
it means ‘to carry’ and so in that sense, tolerance means being able to psychologically carry the tension of opposite ideas and feelings. It is not about agreement.

When I was at college, it was in the relatively early days of female admission there. I was taught by a number of men who had voted against it; who, at least at one time, thought i and those like me should not be there.
they seemed to be able to put that view aside when it came to their teaching lives.

Not true at all.
the true reason has been printed.... nothing to do with money.

The owners of his estate have edited the books in the hope of retaining or increasing their income stream. It’s a business decision that nobody has forced them to take.

If you choose to express your thoughts then others get to comment on them. For example, opposite to many on mumsnet I support trans people. Now I have expressed that opinion you are all free to criticise me as you so wish. That’s not me being cancelled.

I disagree with what JK Rowling has said and do not wish to support her further so I won’t be reading her books. She isn’t cancelled, nor do I want her to be. I am merely choosing who I support and who I do not. If I didn’t know her opinions then I wouldn’t be able to make such a decision.

with regards to RD, The reason we know he was antisemitic is because he expressed those views, so now people can choose if they wish to still read the books. I take the view that once someone is dead it no longer matters anyway so I will continue to enjoy his works and I believe the museum should remain open to those who also wish to still enjoy his books.

Exactly. People are free to think and say what they like, but we’re not all obliged to provide them with an arena in which to say it. You can still read as many Roald Dahl books as you like (and personally I will- although not his stories for adults, if you’ve read any of those it won’t come as a surprise that he wasn’t a very nice man!), a note in a musueum somewhere doesn’t affect that a jot.

@hamstersarse That isn't you not having free speech, that is you not being given a platform.

You have the freedom to express your opinion but others have the freedom to choose not to platform you.

Yes I saw this on here. I plan to read the released documents after work tonight.

@AlizeeEasy
If you choose to express your thoughts then others get to comment on them. For example, opposite to many on mumsnet I support trans people. Now I have expressed that opinion you are all free to criticise me as you so wish. That’s not me being cancelled.

I think some people who talk about free speech want to be free to express their opinions but then don't want others to have the freedom to criticism them. They also seem to think that platforms like mumsnet twitter etc shouldn't have the freedom to chose who and what they platform.

They don't actually want freedom, they want to force others to listen to their opinion and to be immune from criticism.

Freedom of speech is balanced by the freedom not to listen. Where I draw the line however is where people try to stop other people being able to listen.

@DdraigGoch
Freedom of speech is balanced by the freedom not to listen. Where I draw the line however is where people try to stop other people being able to listen.

Do you think that mumsnet or any other social media site not wanting to platform certain views falls into this category though? I see if more as them exercising their freedom not to have their brand associated with certain views.

"I support trans people" isn't an opinion. It's a statement of fact, just as "I support United" is. A statement of fact can be proven or disproven but opinions relate to feelings and beliefs, which are not so tangible.

An opinion would be "I think that United are the best team" or "I think that transwomen should be allowed to compete in women's sports".

There's being criticized for your views and theres the sort of instant shun or #nodebate. I think they're very different things. Nothing wrong with a critique or a good discussion of different views, it can even be a learning experience.

'They don't actually want freedom, they want to force others to listen to their opinion and to be immune from criticism.'*
*
He didn't force anyone to listen to his opinions did he? He held them but they have nothing to do with the work he's actually known for

Say I believe men aren't women (I do) but whilst some people know this is a belief I hold... and not everyone agrees... I don't make my life mission about this subject- instead I do something like some great art, stories, even feed starving children Vs spreading this belief ... why should my achievements be judged by an opinion that yes I hold but has nothing to do with what I actually contribute to the world as my lasting legacy?

Or idk say I am a Muslim (I'm not) and I believe my religion doesn't allow for homosexuality and I express I think homosexuality is a sin as an opinion of mine however I never actually act on my opinion in any meaningful way beyond thinking it and I create idk 🤷‍♀️ an amazing film about wildlife as my lasting legacy to the world... why should that be criticised bc I held a belief that I didn't promote in my film?

I believe that Mumsnet's moderation policy draws the line very well actually.

Generally I prefer disagreeable views to stand so that I can debate them, rather than hiding them where they will fester. I am confident enough in my convictions that I think that they would stand up to debate. Those who try to shut debate down however often seem to have little in the way of arguments to back their views up.

I don't think it is that simple. I will use my own experience as an example.

As a black women I have to deal with a lot of racism. I don't always have the mental reserves to debate racist views. It might seem like simple #nodebate cancelling to an outsider who doesn't deal with racism but in reality it is a kind of mental exhaustion that is hard to explain to those who haven't experienced it.

I realise it's a stretch to suggest Roald Dahl is cancelled and not the best example to illustrate the point I am trying to convey- that there's a trend that worries me to discredit people's achievements and contributions based on things they haven't actively promoted, just thought

One day, when you have time, can you start a thread on what it is that JKR said that you disagree with? I've always wanted to know what upset everyone so much.

I get needing to protect yourself from racism or other discrimination. I don't think there's anything wrong with personally having to avoid or shun someone who brings this to your life. I certainly don't think it's anyone's responsibility to debate all the time.

It's the mob mentality I can't stand. Agree with PP, all people are multifaceted and you can hold a view that doesn't really effect much of what you do with your life. It's like we want to latch onto the negative for the sake of drama.

Hi Alison. I’m not sure I want to subject myself that much to the mercy of mumsnet, but if you are genuinely interested then I highly recommend this video:

it uses studies and research to refute many of the claims that jkr has stated.

@AlizeeEasy It would be helpful if you could summarise the main points from the video please. I'm afraid I don't have a spare hour to watch it from start to finish.

I wanted your opinion. As a person on here who stated that you disagreed. I'd like to know on what.

Just one point maybe?