To find it annoying when people moan about being in the office?

[justfliptheswitch]

Pre covid I was in an office 5 days a week. Since returning it’s been 2 days.

I think this is a great balance. But I’ve had two colleagues moan about childcare and that they shouldn’t have to come etc and for the last year they’ve got away with doing one day but now have to do the same as everyone else … like how did they cope before when it was 5 days?!

Funnily enough, when we hear from young people themselves on MN, they aren't saying this at all. It's a mixed bag, as with other age groups. And of course, plenty of young people are excluded from work opportunities by even a partial requirement to be office based: just like everyone else, some of them are ND, disabled, have caring responsibilities, are geographically isolated etc. If there's one thing we should all have learned about optimum place of work, it's that evidence free generalisations are bollocks.

Also, you must surely realise that people in offices can and do spend hours of the day fucking around too? That doesn't become more advantageous to an employer because it happens to take place on work premises.

I agree with this. As much as it's really convenient for some (particularly older people with settled with children etc) I don't think it's great in the long view especially for younger members of staff or new team members.

If we don't use the offices eventually they will disappear/ become smaller, and then those who are currently living a cosy life WFH ticking all the boxes but not much else will get a shock if they're circumstances change (for instance get divorced, children move out, or join a new company) when they could really do with having an office to go.

I completely agree. I can't see how people think this is the norm. The wfh of working before, for the last 10 years was the norm. Then covid. Now this. People should be very very grateful for some sort of hybrid. No one seems grateful for such a gift.

Of course they do. But at least if they are fucking around chatting to other colleagues it is building the team/trust/relationships.

There are young people at my work who started during COVID who haven't developed nearly as much as they would having been in the office more.

They would generally be asking lots of questions and learning v quickly of their peers, other can check in on them and see if they are looking a little lost etc, all these things 'technically' can be done on Teams but in reality it's much easier to ask a quick question to the person sitting next to you, especially if you've built a good in person relationship as well.

"For me it’s because commuting and wrap around childcare have become stupidly expensive and WFH eliminates those costs. "

Has childcare costs increased significantly?
Have commuting costs increased that much?
Compared to what a young couple with 2 at primary, or 2 at nursery, had to pay pre covid?

I love hybrid working, but can understand the moans. I had never done a Teams meeting before March 2020, now it’s pretty much all I do! Used to waste loads of time travelling to meetings too. An open plan office full of independent Teams meetings is not great. I hope that the new way of working will gradually adjust so that in person collaboration is enabled when working in the office, instead of ticking off an office based day.

No, they haven't. People have got used to not paying, and so have de-prioritised them and spend the money on other less essential things instead that they now don't want to sacrifice

Fucking around absolutely doesn't mean they're building relationships. People fuck around by wasting hours on the internet, for example, or spending ages playing on their phone when they're pretending to have a shit. Even the fucking around that involves chatting to colleagues doesn't mean relationships are being built. It could also involve pissing off said colleagues who don't actually want to be chatted to, and mean they end up doing less work too.

And the young people in your office are not the default. You keep generalising based on nothing more than your own experiences, which can't possibly be enough to back up the claims you're making.

Well lots of other people on this thread seem to be agreeing so can't just be me.

If you're spending hours on the internet, or in the toilet on phone, in the office other team members/ your manager is likely to notice.

Some information about increased childcare costs this year.

https://news.sky.com/story/nursery-fees-to-rise-by-1-000-this-year-as-childcare-providers-struggle-with-costs-forcing-parents-to-quit-work-12806742

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/mar/22/uk-parents-fees-nursery-costs-england

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-64865602

In terms of commuting costs, presumably we're all aware petrol is more expensive than it was pre covid? Here also is some information about train fares increasing by 5.9% in March 2023.

https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/everything-you-need-to-know-about-this-months-rail-fare-increase-030323

And lots of people are disagreeing with you, which indicates that while it isn't only you that thinks this, it's also not a universal truth. Which goes back to my point: generalising is stupid.

As for the second paragraph, not in my experience! And even if they do, doesn't mean they either have the power to do anything (co workers) or the inclination (managers). The fact is that people can and do take the piss in any and every work setting. You just don't appear to have noticed.

like how did they cope before when it was 5 days?!

I have 'coped' without central heating
I have 'coped' without the internet
I 'coped' without mobile phones

But I don't want to carry on 'coping', when there is no need, and life is better now.

How did they cope, well they didn’t did they.

I find it annoying when people mean about wfh.

If you don't like it do t do it but stop trying to foist your office on those of us that do.

Well I personally like the balance of going in a couple of days a week and WFH the rest. And think being in is valuable to the company in general.

Those who don't should probs find jobs that are 100% work from home, rather than coming in and complaining about it.

There should be loads opportunities as by the sounds of it there's absolutely no benefit whatsoever from people coming into the office, and the company would save shed loads on providing office space.

At the end of the day if there is no benefit why did the majority of companies get people back into the office when they were able to? They could have just sold the offices?

For those organisations that own their premises, it's not as easy as simply selling office space off in an environment where the demand for it has been slashed. They're sitting on assets that all of a sudden became much less desirable and valuable (hence some of the government complaints about remote working, incidentally).

Those who rent have been voting with their feet though, hence the UK commercial property sector is doing so badly. The FT article here mentions tenants wanting smaller spaces and shorter leases.

https://www.ft.com/content/ae4afdf7-e60f-4855-b977-78842534f159

As with other Covid change, it'll only become clear in years to come how much we have lost from remote and hybrid working. I think it works for some sectors but for others like mine its led to a hollowing out of the organisation and specific teams within it. It takes exponentially longer to get to know and trust your colleagues. People feel less connected, and less motivated as a result. But no one says that as then we might lose our wfh. We are all individuals now. For me most worrying is the effect on those just entering the workplace and the lack of professionalism some of them are displaying without better structures and role modelling in place. There are massive winners and losers.

But that is the society we constructed - families needing dual incomes and unable to get the space they needed near their place of work. This has been a major correction and positive outcome for individual households and why would they want to give that back.

I didn't, I have worked from home since 2005 in some capacity or other. It's not a new thing, it's just different now because lots of men do it, whereas before it was mainly women so not "acceptable". Of course with some macho bosses it still isn't but the more enlightened employers do see remote working as a good idea.

And for about the millionth time on here, WFH does not to be at home. You can work anywhere depending on whether you need to do confidential calls. I could walk to my local town centre and use a co-working hub if I wanted company.

Childcare costs and commuting costs have gone up, especially childcare costs.

Yeah, I don't know why anyone's trying to disagree with that part. You can feel however you want over the benefits v downsides of more remote working, but there's no two opinions on the increased costs of working.

It's a good point about more men wfh and managing family commitments now.