That two parents working doesn’t work

[Itsmyshadow]

We have 3 DCs aged 8, 4 and 1. DH works full time. I have recently returned from mat leave doing 4 days per week. On my day off I have DC4 and DC1 at home and a large part of that is taken up with swimming lessons.

I feel like I’m failing at everything to be honest. House is a state, am not on top of my work, kids in nursery and after school club for long hours, and don’t even get me started on the amount of after school sporting activities DC1 does which don’t really fit with going to work.

DH is a great dad, does his fair share with the kids, does 50% of the school / nursery runs, and most of DC1’s after school sporting stuff (whilst I have the younger two). He could pull his weight a bit more with the housework but gets off his bottom when I huff and puff / nag, and does all of the DIY and garden. Like most women I carry the mental load, doing all the school, nursery, medical admin etc.

I feel like I need to do a real half arsed job of my work on my wfh days to keep on top of the washing / house / kid admin / kid homework (saw a thread on here the other day about that), but workload / conscience won’t let me do that, and that doesn’t solve for the fact that DC1 has football at 5:30 on a Tuesday or hockey at 6pm on a Wednesday and if I finish at 5pm and I’m in the office, those timings don’t work.

We have a cleaner and a robot vacuum, but I still can’t keep on top of all the crap all around the house (paintings from nursery, party bag loot, paper admin that needs addressing, magazines etc), and feel like the kids get given toys / grow out of clothes much faster than I can get sort through the old ones. Result is a massive mess of a playroom that I keep getting half through sorting before the kids mess it up again and there’s nowhere for everything to go.

Don’t talk to me about TOMM or similar. I’m not lacking motivation or direction. I spend hours per week washing and putting away clothes, batch cooking, sorting through piles of stuff, firefighting cleaning tasks (usually when something mouldy is discovered or someone has spilt something somewhere), but no sooner is something done it’s a complete mess again.

So those of you who work a lot of hours and have young kids. How are you managing? Do you spend hours every evening cooking and cleaning (how do you find the energy if so?), and how to you manage the demands of kids after school activities / social lives?

It was an elderly lady. Come on!

Well yes and no.
Lets see… you do well academically in school, leading to a degree which your parents encouraged you to do - you wernt sure as you were only 17 when applying.
Got a good degree in your field, apply for jobs in your field at 21/22.
Get a fab job in the city, do well, get promoted. To do your job, the hours are 8:30-6:30 plus commute. It’s just what’s required to be taken in any way seriously. It’s taken 15 years to get to the position you are in.
I am applying this to a man OR woman.
Then you decide to have kids. You and your partner have to come to an agreement about the children and who will look after them.
Yes, you could bail out of all that and choose to work in tescos for 20% of what you were earning (or any local job) and get home earlier but where would be the sense in that? There is a choice but not really a reasonable one if you have followed that path.
You either hire full time childcare or one person steps away from paid work to care for the children. Why on Earth would the one on a good salary give up all their years of study to work in a less paid job all to gain 2 hours back? Not an option there. As I said it’s a short time and then they are grown and teens.
in any case I don’t really see the benefit for being around from 6-7pm when a child is grotty and tired and about to go to bed. Most parents of young kids call that the ‘witching hour’ as the child is tired. If that’s the only hour you get to see your kid during each week day it’s pretty depressing.

What does that have to do with it? Someone’s extreme views aren’t less dangerous because the person is old.

Someone isn’t less racist because there are old.

Claiming that women’s liberation is bad for women is a pretty wild claim.

and loads of people also imply or outright say that mums who have children shouldn’t have bothered if they dare to want to continue their careers.

‘Normal job’?? What’s that then? Only the ones you’ve heard of?
Many many people in this country work beyond 6 as standard. I take it you don’t live near London?
The area I grew up in (and to some extent the one im now in) are affluent. You have to earn fairly high to even afford to live here. This is where my family and support is so no, I’m not about to move to a cheaper area hours away.
You sound really quite insular and blinkered if you haven’t heard of people working past 6pm even 🤣
What about my family member who is a nurse? Should she leave because her shifts often run from 7am-7pm meaning she can’t see her young kids for a few days sometimes? I take it that’s not enough of a normal ‘job’? Maybe she should demand 9-5 like you and tell people to only have accidents and illnesses between those times.

i work.

I like to be independent as my last two relationships failed and were abusive.
I don’t want to be beholden to any man’s income.

that aside my professional body chair has suggested work should provide 24 hour crèches to let women work more.
That is seriously too much. I guess the sweet spot is well paid , flexible work or WFH.

Instead of pitting SAHM against working women.

I think we should all push for more legal enshrined rights to flexible work and that would really help everyone a lot.

Grumpyfroghats · Today 12:01
"@Citrines - what would have happened if you had changed your mind and wanted to go back to work? Would your DH have made any compromises to help support you?"

Yes, I suppose so, but we wouldn't have had 4 DC if we were both intending on working. I know I couldn't really have stopped him though and I was never interested in holding him back. He wouldn't notice the extra money if I was working. He told me before we had kids I would not need to work if I didn't want to and he respects that and he thought other things were more important. He wouldn't care about extra money because he doesn't need that from me. And I don't need him to do what Om doing anyway. There are more important priorities really and life is super-busy in a family of 6. Sometimes it's just much easier to specialise.

This is a pretty ironic rant considering YOU are the one who said you didn’t know why people had kids if they didn’t intend on spending every day with them to see them develop in fine detail. Now you’re apparently the champion of mothers working 12 hr days 😂

So I suppose your own view is yes she should quit. Why are you asking others?

What about my family member who is a nurse? Should she leave because her shifts often run from 7am-7pm meaning she can’t see her young kids for a few days sometimes?

I'm not sure what point you are making with this example - that your family member should not have had kids? She's not a good mother because she presumably needs to use childcare and has not quit her job, even though she has young kids? Or does she have a SAHD then?

We both work PT. Only have 2 children. The children do few extra curricular activities. The house is still a mess and to be honest not very clean either. We also don't have much money. I am at home for my children though and at the moment that's the most important thing. (annoyingly, the more they are home the more mess they create!) I would hate for them to be doing long days in nursery or after school clubs when they're so young. I'd also hate to never see my partner. I think a lot of it is choices you make. You can have the money or the time. (Some don't have that choice of course - but anyone who is in a family where both parents work in well paid jobs definitely does have a choice). People seem to get trapped in thinking they have to maintain their big house, new car, fancy holidays etc. You don't.

I don't think London and its working people is necessarily representative of the UK working population. Yes, the UK culture of long hours is toxic (and there are countries that handle things so much better) but in a lot of places you can do an ordinary job and be OK.

I worked 8 - 4 when mine were little (still do) and got home by 5ish. Evenings weren't crabby or grumpy, we had a good routine involving home cooked family meal, bath, bedtime story. I always had breakfast with my kids as well. We didn't work weekends so that was family and activity time. We weren't deprived. We were broke while paying 2 lots of nursery, but that wasn't forever.

What on earth are you on about? My Mum, and both my Grandmothers had opinions, they had an education, they travelled, they were heard and they had equal financial control over the family pot. This is because they were all married to decent men, not PIGS.

They also voted (what year are you harking back to?) They also all had jobs, but there was never an EXPECTATION for them to "have it all" and provide 50% of the family income. Whereas now, it IS expected and SAHM are frowned upon. Jeezo, there are lots of men out there as well, that expect their wives to still stump up for 50% of the bills when they are on MAT leave. That's how fucking ridiculous things have become.

As for your reference to the Taliban - get a grip.

Well look how rude that is. Your other post shows that you think there is a black and white dichotomy - high-flying London city job working 12 hour days, or working in Tesco’s on minimum wage.

There are MANY jobs in this country that are professional, use higher education, are not in London and have normal 9-5 hours as well as good pay. Not crazy London pay, but then if you don’t live in London that’s not needed. I live in a Home County - there are a lot of head offices here of supermarkets, travel companies, defence companies, banks and pharma companies. Jobs like data science and software development are all across the country, pay well, are “academic” and have great work life balance. One of the things me and my husband agree on is that our life/hobbies outside of work is really important - my London friends “work hard and play hard” yet none of it ever appealed to me. They earn more but save less and are constantly working late then out drinking - no thanks. You are the one with the narrow view for thinking London = UK.

The notion that you must work 8:30-6:30 and commute to be “taken in any way seriously” is so outdated and London-centric (or finance/law centric). Pretty sure my entire team is taken very seriously - without us a large function of a large company would fall apart, and we all log off at 5.

@BeachBlondey

What you describe was not available to many women. A lot of that depends on age and socio-economic background

What on earth are you on about? My Mum, and both my Grandmothers had opinions, they had an education, they travelled, they were heard and they had equal financial control over the family pot. This is because they were all married to decent men, not PIGS

My grandmothers both left school at age 14. Both went straight to work in factories. No education for either of them. Travel and education were for the middle classes.

One grandmother finally to travel when she retired. The other never left Scotland, barely left Glasgow actually. They both had opinions but no one was interested in the views of working class women and girls. My grandfathers were both lovely, decent men. Of their time. Not PIGS.

They also all had jobs, but there was never an EXPECTATION for them to "have it all" and provide 50% of the family income. Whereas now, it IS expected and SAHM are frowned upon. Jeezo, there are lots of men out there as well, that expect their wives to still stump up for 50% of the bills when they are on MAT leave. That's how fucking ridiculous things have become

Having it all - was an unobtainable fantasy for my grandmothers. Not something they could have possibly achieved - unless they won the Pools.

One had to work all her life in unskilled, low paying jobs. She was expected to provide as both wages were desperately needed. They lived in poverty all their lives.

The other was a housewife living off housekeeping and child benefit. They were pretty poor too. Especially when my grandfather was made redundant in the 1980s in his 50s and never worked again.

Maternity leave - another fantasy that didn't exist for either of my grandparents.

If you tell me that my husband isn’t an active father because he doesn’t have a normal job like you logging off at 5, then yes, I’m going to be rude.
My point was that many jobs don’t finish at 5 but are still perfectly normal and many parents don’t see their kids for a few days due to getting home late (as I have said nurses and shift workers for one)
Does not make them a non active parent.

I am also sick of this ridiculous sentiment that you're only a real true proper success in a 'real career' and a really successful person if you leave the house at 6.30 in the morning and don't get back til 7.30 at night (3 hour round trip commute minimum!!!) Absolute load of hogwash ...

I do an actually quite important job (I'm not saying what it is because it's identifying.) I do around 22 to 24 hours a week ... DH also does quite an important job and he does 28 to 30 hours a week. I do most of my hours from home - he doesn't. We have both been full time but are nearly 60 now, and quite frankly can't be fucked, and have better things to do than be at bastard work.

I have had the experience of leaving the house at 7:00 AM and not getting back till 7.00PM - several years were when the kids were home ... and it was the worst time of my life. No way in hell will I ever do those hours again.

It doesn't make you more important or better or more successful or a more amazing person, if you're out of the house 12-13 hours a day and you've got a massively long commute... it just makes you a mug to be honest with you when there are so many opportunities and much better jobs, that give you a lot more free time family time/work-life balance.

I can only surmise people working a lot of hours a week (55+) must desperately need the money, and must not be very high up in their workplace. The people in proper high end jobs on high salaries who I know, delegate a lot, spend half the week on the golf course or in the gym, or at their holiday villa, and have 2 hour long lunches. They are certainly not doing 55-60 hours a week work (or more!!!)

If the London type people want this 12 hours a day in the office doing every single thing the employer tells them to do type life, they're more than welcome... It's their life that they're wasting.

You can have the money or the time. (Some don't have that choice of course - but anyone who is in a family where both parents work in well paid jobs definitely does have a choice). People seem to get trapped in thinking they have to maintain their big house, new car, fancy holidays etc. You don't.
Ah, the old big house, new car, fancy holiday trope, I love to see it. DP and I are both senior, well paid, full time. The house is a fixer upper we can’t afford to fix up, the car is a clapped 2009 Renault Clio I inherited that struggles up inclines, our last “holiday” was to my dad’s house. Have you seen the price of just paying your mortgage, electricity bill and the food shop lately? We’re well paid but we’re not 1% – I think actually 99% of people aren’t…

We also work for flexible, family-friendly companies so manage all drop offs/pick-ups between us, sometimes go to the park after pre-school with DD, sometimes play a card game as a family, sometimes build a den with sofa cushions (my LEAST favourite), have an ice lolly in summer, whatever – I don’t recognise the “RACE home from the BIG JOB in the CITY to pick up an ANGRY child and battle them for the WITCHING HOUR” trope either. I’m pretty senior, I’ve been working for 21 years, if anything the higher up you get the easier it is to say no, not doing a silly o’clock meeting, I’m going to the swings. Jobs and experiences vary, obviously, but it’s not a binary choice of work/home, or work insane hours/Tesco.

Wft?
omg so many things wrong with this post I don’t even know where to start.

Yet….you have repeatedly said on this thread that women aren’t good parents if they work full-time, they are “farming out” their kids, aren’t raising them, and why bother having them if they’re not going to be around in the day? Seems to completely contradict. The mental gymnastics to point out that your husband/other relative are amazing parents even if they don’t see their kids for days, but shaming women on here for choosing to work full-time, and saying that you can’t be a great mum and great employee at the same time?? 🤣

Apparently you are only magically a present and good parent working full time if you have a penis.

I completely agree with you - I find once you get about 30 miles out of London that mad mentality dies down a bit.

My good god. I have repeated myself on here so many times.
My opinion is and always had been One parent for the kids- one to work. It doesn’t matter which way round!!

Or you don’t have a penis, but the person who does is at home looking after the kids? You are just hearing what you want to and trying to make it fit.

And what we’re all saying is that that means the “one to work” has checked out of parenting, by your logic, because you don’t think it’s possible to work and parent effectively.