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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Staff and pupils dying from asbestos in schools

176 replies

nobodysdaughternow · 02/07/2023 08:13

I am completely shocked to discover I have potentially sent two of my children to schools which could potentially kill them.

The Times today detailed the story of Chris Willis diagnosed with mesothelioma (a cancer caused by inhaling asbestos fibres) at 29 years old. He died last year at 34.

Newcastle City Council paid substantial damages to Chris for his exposure to asbestos, which he believed happened at Kenton School between 2000 and 2007.

Schools with asbestos are told not to publish asbestos management plans.

10,000 teachers, pupils and staff who have died from asbestos exposure at schools in the past four decades.

If your child goes to a 'block built' school with asbestos, which is at or past it's design life expectancy, then they are at risk.

I naively believed asbestos exposure ended with my grandparents generation. I am very, very angry.

My middle ds went to a special school which was literally crumbling. It was an appalling school and when my son was distressed, he would throw himself at the particleboard wall which I now know may well have contained asbestos.

I didn't have a choice where I sent my kids to school. I thought poor Ofsted's were my biggest worry.

Aibu to ask if you know about the danger to teachers, staff and pupils from asbestos?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Tygertiger · 02/07/2023 16:08

Turquoisflutterby · 02/07/2023 16:05

Other than brand new built schools almost all of them will have asbestos in a perfectly safe form unless disturbed. On that note so will many of the public buildings - libraries, hospitals, public transport etc.

Is the figure of 10,000 true? Where did it come from?

“In a perfectly safe form unless disturbed”. And there’s the rub. How would staff know if it’s been disturbed? Schools already have 35+ children in classrooms built for 30, max. Our local special school is so overcrowded they’re using medical rooms as classrooms. An average secondary school has 1000 teenagers and 150 staff, moving round the site multiple times a day. The chances of it being disturbed just by normal wear and tear are much higher in a school than a library, surely.

Canyousewcushions · 02/07/2023 16:17

Timeforchangeithink · 02/07/2023 10:31

Asbestos is in so many places you can't imagine. Storage heaters, electrical boxes, doors, ceilings, roofs, floor tiles. Even buildings built after 1999 may contain asbestos as there's no guarantee the builder didn't use old stock. Doesn't make it any better but just in case anyone is interested,

This. It's everywhere.

It's concerning in schools, but it's also in walls, ceilings, wrapped around pipes and in heating systems- in schools, homes, offices etc etc. It's an amazing material in terms of its heat and fire properties, so it'll probably be in a significant proportion of pre-2000 buildings. Most buildings will have had boiler replacements/central heating installations etc over time even if the more obvious stuff like dubious ceiling tiles aren't present, so even older buildings like those at Eton would also be prime suspects for finding it somewhere.

It's not a good thing and it would be amazing to be able to wave a wand and fix it, but fundamentally the prevalence of it means its really in the category of "don't drill into/remove anything that looks dodgy but there's a limit to how much emotional energy is worth dedicating to it".

Reugny · 02/07/2023 16:19

Tygertiger · 02/07/2023 16:08

“In a perfectly safe form unless disturbed”. And there’s the rub. How would staff know if it’s been disturbed? Schools already have 35+ children in classrooms built for 30, max. Our local special school is so overcrowded they’re using medical rooms as classrooms. An average secondary school has 1000 teenagers and 150 staff, moving round the site multiple times a day. The chances of it being disturbed just by normal wear and tear are much higher in a school than a library, surely.

So you think people who work in hospitals are safer?

Btw hospitals are another set of public buildings that are falling apart.

lieselotte · 02/07/2023 16:31

I remember using the asbestos mats in chemistry lessons as well. We used to pick bits off them. Oh well all we can do is hope that we didn't inhale too much of it.

A friend of my mum's died of mesothelioma but he worked as a surveyor, not in a school.

Piggywaspushed · 02/07/2023 16:31

Hospitals are also mentioned i the article.

If I can figure out how to, I'll do a share token. It's easy to be blasé unless you read it.

lieselotte · 02/07/2023 16:33

(The Times should really make this free to read)

Saywhatevernow · 02/07/2023 16:37

Only on mn is the indifference to where their children are educated and who does that education - could you have whatabouterry and excuses for the state of schools. It’s proven to have killed people and it’s still there. A conservative leaning paper is highlighting this issue and not for the first time.

TheYearOfSmallThings · 02/07/2023 16:41

I'm pretty sure every house I've lived in and every hospital I've ever worked in contained asbestos. Probably my school too, but the truth is we have all been exposed to so much that I couldn't begin to know where to look if I developed mesothelioma. That goes for most people my age (40s) and up.

Piggywaspushed · 02/07/2023 16:42

Last week the National Audit Office estimated that as many as 24,000 school buildings were beyond their initial design life, and of particular risk were 13,800 “system-built” blocks constructed between 1940 and 1980. Many of these contain asbestos.

Sir Stephen Timms, chairman of the Commons work and pensions committee, which conducted an inquiry into asbestos last year, said: “When you mention asbestos to most people, they tend to think it was a problem of the past that’s been dealt with. When you tell them it’s still all around us, they’re surprised. When you tell them it’s the UK’s biggest work-related killer, they’re shocked. And when you tell them it’s in most of our schools, they tend to become worried.”
“A tragedy is unfolding as we watch,” said Professor Kevin Bampton, chief executive of the British Occupational Hygiene Society, the leading charity on asbestos control. “We are currently sowing the seeds of a spike in cancer that will hit us in 30 to 40 years if we don’t act now. There is a perception that asbestos is a thing of the past, but it isn’t.”

Asbestos is not a problem from a bygone age: more than 5,000 people a year are dying from diseases caused by it, primarily mesothelioma. And because of the length of the latency period before symptoms occur, some people exposed to asbestos in the last century may yet fall victim to it. Others will die of asbestosis — a hardening of the lungs — or of lung cancer.
Asbestos was banned in new buildings in the UK in 1999 but, according to Airtight on Asbestos, which campaigns for its removal, more than 6 million tonnes of it may still be found in as many as 1.5 million buildings.
Asbestos is not toxic when left intact, but it can become dangerous when exposed or when buildings start to crumble or are renovated. Campaigners argue that, with so many public buildings in need of repair, the risk is growing.
A DfE survey in 2019 found that 81 per cent of state schools in England contained asbestos. In Scotland and Wales the figure is about 60 per cent. There are more than 32,000 schools in the UK, and any built before 1999 are likely to contain it. Among them are 12,000 “system-built” schools, based on lightweight steel and prefabricated designs with large amounts of asbestos. It was used as a fire retardant, insulation, pipe lagging, floor and ceiling tiles and panelling in walls and roof voids. The tiling would be made from chrysotile, or white asbestos, the inhalation of which can lead to asbestos-related illness. Much of the rest was amosite, or brown asbestos, which is a hundred times as deadly.

Health and safety legislation does not require schools to inform parents about the presence of asbestos in schools, though some do provide parents with information to ensure them about effective management. Schools with asbestos are legally obliged to have a management plan, but not to make it public.
The Sunday Times is campaigning for a phased removal of asbestos, starting with schools and hospitals. Government policy is to leave it in place unless it is disturbed and damaged. But with many lightweight prefabricated structures built in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s now in a state of disrepair, this is no longer a viable policy: it could be putting schoolchildren, teachers and ancillary workers at risk. Not everyone who inhales asbestos will be affected by it, but some need to breathe in only a few fibres.
Mesothelioma is responsible for more than half of asbestos-related deaths in the UK each year. According to the National Education Union, about 400 former teachers have died from the disease since 1980, 300 of them since 2001.

Research by the Environmental Protection Agency in America found that for every teacher dying from mesothelioma, nine pupils would go on to die in middle or old age. The Joint Union Asbestos Committee (JUAC), which represents eight teaching unions in the UK, believes that more than 10,000 people died from mesothelioma between 1980 and 2017 after being exposed to asbestos decades earlier as pupils and school staff.
Gill Reed, a technical adviser to the JUAC, says: “What we can predict with some confidence is that thousands more people will die in the coming decades because of exposure to asbestos that has already happened in the classroom. We should be getting asbestos out of schools now to save future generations.”

I found that Gina {Lees, another victim] and the children in her class had been regularly exposed, sometimes every day,” said Lees, who was appointed an MBE in 2014 for his research.
His wife worked as a teacher for 30 years in about 20 schools. “The children loved her,” said Lees. “She would encourage her pupils to paint and draw, and she’d pin their pictures up on the ceiling so they could look up at them. It turned out the ceiling tiles in at least some of the places she worked were made of asbestos.”
After Gina’s death, Robin Howie, an asbestos consultant and former president of the British Occupational Hygiene Society, conducted an experiment and found that pulling a drawing pin out of asbestos material released about 6,000 fibres. “During her career she must have done that tens of thousands of times,” said Lees.
Gina died in 2000 at their home near Bideford in Devon with her husband of 29 years and their children, James and Natasha, at her bedside. “The policy in the UK is to leave the asbestos in place and manage it,” Lees said. “That might work in an office, but it cannot work in a school — because schools contain children, and children tend to be boisterous, banging into asbestos panels, slamming doors and poking at ceiling tiles. And all of that can release asbestos fibres into the air.”
Officials rejected removal planThere is evidence that children exposed to asbestos are more at risk than adults. In 2013 a committee that advises the government on cancer found that a child exposed to asbestos at the age of five was five times more likely to develop mesothelioma than an adult exposed to it at 30.
“Mesothelioma is a particularly nasty type of cancer,” said Saranjit Sihota, director of external affairs for Mesothelioma UK. “A person may be perfectly fine for decades, then feel a little out of breath or have a stomach ache. In most cases they’ll be told it’s terminal and they only have months to live. This has a devastating impact on individuals and families.”
Last year the work and pensions committee recommended that the government should embark on a 40-year programme of removal of asbestos from all non-commercial buildings and establish a national register of all those with asbestos in situ, with a record of its condition.
The government rejected both recommendations.

Piggywaspushed · 02/07/2023 16:42

Copied and pasted as much as I could. There was more...

Piggywaspushed · 02/07/2023 16:44

TheYearOfSmallThings · 02/07/2023 16:41

I'm pretty sure every house I've lived in and every hospital I've ever worked in contained asbestos. Probably my school too, but the truth is we have all been exposed to so much that I couldn't begin to know where to look if I developed mesothelioma. That goes for most people my age (40s) and up.

That's exactly what Gina Lees' husband did:

After Gina Lees, a teacher, died of mesothelioma at the age of 51, the coroner at her inquest asked her widower, Michael, to try to find out where she had been exposed to asbestos. What followed became a 15-year investigation about the presence of asbestos in schools.

Michael Lees, a former RAF pilot, went on to lobby ministers, challenge best practices established by the HSE and set up the Asbestos in Schools group; a brains trust comprising asbestos testing consultants, medical experts, MPs, trade unions, bereaved spouses of mesothelioma victims and law firms.
In 2011 it produced a report that said amosite was present in most schools, and that because the mostly system-built schools were deteriorating, fibres were being inhaled by teachers and pupils. “I found that Gina and the children in her class had been regularly exposed, sometimes every day,” said Lees, who was appointed an MBE in 2014 for his research.
His wife worked as a teacher for 30 years in about 20 schools. “The children loved her,” said Lees. “She would encourage her pupils to paint and draw, and she’d pin their pictures up on the ceiling so they could look up at them. It turned out the ceiling tiles in at least some of the places she worked were made of asbestos.”

TheYearOfSmallThings · 02/07/2023 16:47

The Joint Union Asbestos Committee (JUAC), which represents eight teaching unions in the UK, believes that more than 10,000 people died from mesothelioma between 1980 and 2017 after being exposed to asbestos decades earlier as pupils and school staff.

This is almost meaningless for example. You could take every single case of mesothelioma, confirm that the patient attended school at some point, assume that schools of that period almost universally contained some asbestos, and then make the statement above. It does not actually suggest a causal link, but several posters on this thread have read it that way.

Reugny · 02/07/2023 17:01

@Saywhatevernow The "indifference" as you call it is because a good few posters know that British buildings, unless modern, are riddled with asbestos and unless we do specific jobs it would be impossible to work out if we got mesothelioma the source(s).

Piggywaspushed · 02/07/2023 17:05

Did you read the bit about the risk increasing because of the crumbling estate? That's the bit that concerns people and renders the 'leave well alone' advice less sound.

My old house had an asbestos roof but no one messed with it. The people who moved in after us had it replaced. Huge job. Hazmats everywhere.

Turquoisflutterby · 02/07/2023 17:13

Tygertiger · 02/07/2023 16:08

“In a perfectly safe form unless disturbed”. And there’s the rub. How would staff know if it’s been disturbed? Schools already have 35+ children in classrooms built for 30, max. Our local special school is so overcrowded they’re using medical rooms as classrooms. An average secondary school has 1000 teenagers and 150 staff, moving round the site multiple times a day. The chances of it being disturbed just by normal wear and tear are much higher in a school than a library, surely.

Nope. That's not how it works.

Unless you start taking down walls, it's not a problem.

Saywhatevernow · 02/07/2023 17:17

Reugny · 02/07/2023 17:01

@Saywhatevernow The "indifference" as you call it is because a good few posters know that British buildings, unless modern, are riddled with asbestos and unless we do specific jobs it would be impossible to work out if we got mesothelioma the source(s).

It is indifference and proves most people couldn’t give a shit about the education of their children and the health of those who teach them. School buildings are literally falling apart. The leave well alone advice is duff.

Piggywaspushed · 02/07/2023 17:20

Turquoisflutterby · 02/07/2023 17:13

Nope. That's not how it works.

Unless you start taking down walls, it's not a problem.

Literally not true.

Also, some buildings are at risk of collapse, and are crumbling. The dfe fully acknowledges this.

Won't tell anyone which ones, mind.

Turquoisflutterby · 02/07/2023 17:21

Piggywaspushed · 02/07/2023 17:20

Literally not true.

Also, some buildings are at risk of collapse, and are crumbling. The dfe fully acknowledges this.

Won't tell anyone which ones, mind.

You're wrong. I've done fairly extensive building management training for asbestos.

Can you point me to any credible source that says that stable asbestos is a danger to anyone?

Reugny · 02/07/2023 17:21

Saywhatevernow · 02/07/2023 17:17

It is indifference and proves most people couldn’t give a shit about the education of their children and the health of those who teach them. School buildings are literally falling apart. The leave well alone advice is duff.

It is only "indifferent" to you because you weren't aware until you read The Times article of all the buildings riddled with asbestos, and the mainly working class men who are still dying from doing jobs that involve and involved working in close environments with it.

Saywhatevernow · 02/07/2023 17:23

Piggywaspushed · 02/07/2023 17:20

Literally not true.

Also, some buildings are at risk of collapse, and are crumbling. The dfe fully acknowledges this.

Won't tell anyone which ones, mind.

I honestly think it’s going to take a tragedy of a collapsed building to highlight the state of schools. The government are literally hiding it in plain sight. It’s almost like people missed that press release only a week or so ago. Cognitive dissonance or ignorance. Don’t know which.

Saywhatevernow · 02/07/2023 17:24

Reugny · 02/07/2023 17:21

It is only "indifferent" to you because you weren't aware until you read The Times article of all the buildings riddled with asbestos, and the mainly working class men who are still dying from doing jobs that involve and involved working in close environments with it.

Erm I am acutely aware of the state of our school buildings. I teach in them. More so than you it would seem.

Saywhatevernow · 02/07/2023 17:24

Turquoisflutterby · 02/07/2023 17:21

You're wrong. I've done fairly extensive building management training for asbestos.

Can you point me to any credible source that says that stable asbestos is a danger to anyone?

You didn’t read her post. The issue is - school buildings are not stable. Many are crumbling.

Turquoisflutterby · 02/07/2023 17:35

Saywhatevernow · 02/07/2023 17:24

You didn’t read her post. The issue is - school buildings are not stable. Many are crumbling.

I did read her post thanks.

My understand is that "crumbling" doesn't necessarily equate to disturbed asbestos, it needs to be directly disturbed. Happy for your or the OP to provide actual evidence otherwise?

Saywhatevernow · 02/07/2023 17:39

Turquoisflutterby · 02/07/2023 17:35

I did read her post thanks.

My understand is that "crumbling" doesn't necessarily equate to disturbed asbestos, it needs to be directly disturbed. Happy for your or the OP to provide actual evidence otherwise?

It’s all out there. School buildings are falling apart as the DfE themselves spoke about. It was reported much the same as this last month. So go and look? Or I don’t know, maybe read what she said (you didn’t) and are now backtracking. Or I don’t know, listen to the people who work in these buildings daily. Maybe you could come and visit my school and pop the buckets under the crumbling ceiling when it rains?