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Yorkshire Building Society closing accounts down on people with views that don't agree with their policy

310 replies

Summer2023hasarrived · 30/06/2023 17:06

So the story goes that if you have a view on Brexit or LGBTQ?+ that isn't inline or in agreement with the people that know what view is right at The Yorkshire Building Society then they can close your account?

AIBU - stick to the day job and provide mortgages and savings

YABU - they can decide if the values of their customers don't align to shut them down

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Thatgirl1981 · 12/07/2023 06:32

ToWhitToWhoo · 12/07/2023 02:47

Well, there's at least one group of people, who usually AREN'T left-wing:

Bankers.

Seems they are all support the tenant of the new left wing religion the critical theory’s

any one who is for free speech
any one who is critical of the new faith or articals of it

religious people
anyone who is openly right wing

bankers have seen got to punish

and I love this their a private business so they can do as they wish I still haven’t had a answer if they hate blacks like me should I have my bank account closed if not why not after all their private

never thought I would see so many who call them self progressives
shilling for discrimination and the banks 😂

Thatgirl1981 · 12/07/2023 06:37

JayWayney · 12/07/2023 03:47

So poor old Mr F lost his bank account and lied. I wonder if he had any sympathy for all those UK citizens living in Europe when his blessed brexit made movement of money between the UK and the EU more difficult and some banks decided to close the accounts of those in Europe. It caused a lot of difficulty for a lot of people.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/11/eu-bank-accounts-closed-brexit/

What about the cluster bombs

what about cheese

wondered when someone who being on Brexit

you are essentially saying so we’re clear I hate farage coz of Brexit so I am glad he’s had his bank account taken away
democratic votes mean nothing if I don’t get my own way and because of this my political enemies deserve everything they get.

the quiet part always gets said out loud

like I said on another thread we are starting to see the excess of the left

Bosky · 18/07/2023 23:05

This thread popped up in "Similar Threads" to one I am on in FWR and it looks like it needs an update. Most (all?) of the allegations about Farage earlier in this thread appear to have been refuted by the documents supplied by Coutts in response to Farage's Subject Access Request.

I am no fan of Farage but Coutts has obviously made a big mistake going for him - and then lying about the reasons that they closed his account. He has kicked up a right stink and that will help people who do not have his public profile.

It used to be a legal right for everyone in the UK to have a Bank Account and that was achieved through the Post Office Bank. There is even more need for that right to be reinstated in Legislation now, when so few people are paid in cash and so many payments are required to be cashless.

Pop these links into one of the usual Archive sites:

Nigel Farage’s Coutts account closed as bank felt he did not ‘align with their values’
Documents obtained by ex-Ukip leader show reputational risk committee ‘exited’ him after considering his views on issues such as Brexit

Extracts

"Earlier this month, the BBC and the Financial Times reported claims that the reason Mr Farage’s accounts were closed was that they fell below the financial threshold required by the bank. The BBC quoted sources “familiar with” the Coutts decision.

Yet in the 40 pages of documents released to Mr Farage after he made a subject access request to Coutts, the bank repeatedly says he “meets the EC [economic contribution] criteria for commercial retention”."

"Minutes of a meeting of Coutts’ wealth reputational risk committee held on Nov 17 2022 state: “The committee did not think continuing to bank NF was compatible with Coutts given his publicly-stated views that were at odds with our position as an inclusive organisation.

“This was not a political decision but one centred around inclusivity and purpose.”

Mr Farage has said Coutts told him he was not being treated as a Politically Exposed Person (PEP) – a legal term for customers who are deemed risky for political reasons – but the dossier specifically states that he is one.

He writes: “Whoever at Coutts thought it clever to feed friendly media outlets outright lies about me sorely misjudged the situation.”

The document contains 39 mentions of Mr Trump, and Mr Farage says: “The fact that I support Donald Trump is part of this charge sheet.”

"It says he is seen as “xenophobic and racist”, repeats claims that he was a “fascist” in his schooldays, and says he said things in the past that are “distasteful and appear increasingly out of touch with wider society”.

Mr Farage writes that the dossier “reads rather like a pre-trial brief drawn up by the prosecution in a case against a career criminal. Monthly press checks were made on me. My social media accounts were monitored. Anything considered ‘problematic’ was recorded. I was being watched”.

"Mr Farage now says he cannot get an account with any other bank, having been turned down by 10 banks since Coutts withdrew its services. Members of his family have also been refused accounts by other banks, and one family member was told their account was being closed."

Speaking on Mr Farage’s GB News show, Lord Lamont, a former chancellor, said: “I was appalled when I looked at the documents.

“It seems to me a right to have a bank account is a fundamental right... but it appears that the executives of the bank were going through your views and saying they were not compatible with their values. That is not the function of a bank. It’s extraordinary that a bank should set itself up as some judge of political correctness.”

Some senior Tory MPs have called for a change in the law on PEPs to prevent abuse of the system. Under UK financial law, gatekeepers of the banking system must perform enhanced checks on people classed as PEPs, their families and close associates.

The Treasury has confirmed that it is reviewing whether banks are blacklisting customers with controversial political views. Under the new Financial Services and Markets Act, the Financial Conduct Authority will look at how banks deal with PEPs in a review to take place within the next year.

A spokesman for the Treasury said: “It would be of serious concern if financial services were being denied to anyone exercising their right to lawful free speech.

“We will soon set out plans to crack down on this practice by toughening the rules around account closures, protecting freedom of expression. In the meantime, people can complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service which has the power to direct a bank to reopen an account.”

Continues at:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/18/nigel-farage-coutts-bank-account-closed-align-with-values/

The real reason Coutts closed my accounts – and it has nothing to do with my finances
I have seen the Stasi-style surveillance report used to justify the bank’s extraordinary action – it is, frankly, shocking"

Extracts

"My fate was sealed at a meeting of the bank’s wealth reputational risk committee on Nov 17, 2022.

Executives agreed that, once my mortgage expired, I was to be “de-banked”. I know this because, via a subject access request, I have seen the 36-page Stasi-style surveillance report used at that meeting to justify this extraordinary action. This report is, frankly, shocking.

The first thing to say is that Coutts’s decision to cancel me had nothing to do with my finances. Contrary to the damaging briefings made to the BBC and the FT this month about my holdings falling below the bank’s threshold, the report states several times that my “economic contribution” is sound and my funds are “sufficient to retain on a commercial basis”.

It even acknowledges that I am a positive net financial contributor to the bank. Whoever at Coutts thought it clever to feed friendly media outlets outright lies about me sorely misjudged the situation."

"This report is proof that any Coutts customer who holds even vaguely conservative views should be treated with disdain. My friendship with the family of Novak Djokovic, who stood firm over his belief that he should have the freedom to choose whether to receive the Covid vaccine, is mentioned on the charge sheet.

So is my retweeting of a Ricky Gervais gag and my belief in leaving the European Convention on Human Rights. What do these things have to do with my bank account?"

Vladimir Putin’s Russia was the obvious choice for their smear campaign. Indeed, the Labour MP Sir Chris Bryant is mentioned twice for his false allegation – made in the Commons chamber last year but never repeated outside it – that I received £548,573 in one calendar year “from the Russian state”.

Yet Coutts’s report notes (presumably through gritted teeth) that it found no evidence of my having any links to Russia. And it checked thoroughly."

"The most extraordinary comments of all are the areas of the report talking about me “not aligning with [Coutts’s] views” and suggesting I must be barred because I do not support the diversity, policies and “purpose” of Coutts, as though Britain is a political regime and I am a dissident.

What should any of us make of this word “purpose”? Surely the purpose of a commercial organisation is to act with integrity and to make a profit for shareholders – in the case of Coutts, by the way, that means all of us. For its biggest shareholder is the state, which retains a 38.6 per cent stake in this bank and the wider RBS group, including NatWest."

"Over the last few years, thousands of all banks’ customers have seen their applications to open accounts refused, or existing accounts closed.

This happens for various reasons. Perhaps a business takes too much cash, as the bank sees it. The nature of being deemed a politically exposed person or a member of their extended family is another possibility. But existing rules mean the banks never have to explain a “de-banking”.

I’m probably the first public figure to challenge the behaviour of our banking industry in this way. It is clear Coutts thought it could spin its way out of my “de-banking” and perhaps even emerge with its image enhanced. Not this time."

"This story is not just about me. You could be next. Refinitiv, which monitors creditworthiness, can examine social media posts made by any of us on Facebook or elsewhere. If this situation is left unchecked, we will sleepwalk towards a China-style social credit system in which only those with the “correct” views are allowed to fully participate in society."

Continues at:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/18/nigel-farage-coutts-uk-bank-accounts/

Nigel Farage’s Coutts account closed as bank felt he did not ‘align with their values’

Documents obtained by ex-Ukip leader show reputational risk committee ‘exited’ him after considering his views on issues such as Brexit

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/18/nigel-farage-coutts-bank-account-closed-align-with-values/

lieselotte · 19/07/2023 11:25

SingingNettles · 01/07/2023 21:11

I’d love to know what he considers ‘LGBT ideology’ and what the contents of his email were

I suspect there are a lot of businesses who’d have reservations about continuing with a client who’s sending them complaint emails

They can always block him :)

Anyway most businesses won't accept emails, it is very difficult to contact them at all, so it's hardly going to be a big issue.

lieselotte · 19/07/2023 11:27

RedToothBrush · 05/07/2023 16:01

50 percentage of the population have a below average IQ. Or are just too bloody lazy to fact check. Or like the narrative because it matches their world view so don't seek an alternative explaination in case it undermines their world view.

Who says it's a hoax?

Anyway I don't like the man or his viewpoints, but you can't deny someone banking services because you don't like their opinions. It may be that other aspects were relevant here, but it's a fact that people have had their bank accounts closed for spurious reasons, both in the UK and overseas.

Bosky · 19/07/2023 13:03

RedToothBrush · 05/07/2023 16:01

50 percentage of the population have a below average IQ. Or are just too bloody lazy to fact check. Or like the narrative because it matches their world view so don't seek an alternative explaination in case it undermines their world view.

Ahem! "50 percentage of the population have a below average IQ. Or are just too bloody lazy to fact check. Or like the narrative because it matches their world view so don't seek an alternative explaination in case it undermines their world view."

How are you feeling about those accusations now?

Of course 50% of the population have a below average IQ - that's how IQ scores work.

Brain power drops with failure to employ intellectual curiosity and with reliance on stereotypes and prejudices.

How are the facts impacting on your own world view, given that they fail to support the explanations in this thread that you favour, being based as they are on negative assumptions about Farage?

For example, that he would have been rude to staff and that sort of behaviour would not have been tolerated?

"The dossier noted that there was 'no evidence of regulator or legal censure' of Mr Farage, that he was 'professional, polite and respectful' to staff and that he had recently been downgraded from a 'higher risk politically exposed person [PEP]' to lower risk, and was on the way to being classed as no risk at all."

The Coutts dossier is published in full here, if you are not "just too bloody lazy to fact check":

Revealed: The full Coutts Farage dossier. How bank admitted ex-Ukip leader DID meet 'commercial criteria' but used tweet of Ricky Gervais trans joke and Novak Djokovic ties to decide he was 'at odds with our position as an inclusive organisation'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12314423/The-Coutts-Farage-dossier-bank-admitted-ex-Ukip-leader-DID-meet-commercial-criteria-used-tweet-Ricky-Gervais-trans-joke-Novak-Djokovic-ties-decide-odds-position-inclusive-organisation.html

Like I have said before, I am no fan of Farage. I find him very irritating TBH.

However, I have rather less respect now for the professionalism of Coutts employees and management, who seem to think that it is acceptable to conduct an official evaluation of a customer that includes Twitter-incel shitposting level comments such as, "He is considered by many to be a disingenuous grifter".

Coutts is owned by Nat West with rather more of us likely to hold accounts with Nat West than Coutts. There are threads about other Banks that have closed accounts of customers without explanation. Are any of them less likely to treat customers whose views they disagree with any less contempt?

Revealed: The Coutts dossier on Nigel Farage in full

The 40-page file shows that the bank cited his retweet of a Ricky Gervais joke and his friendship with Novak Djokovic to raise concerns he was 'xenophobic and racist'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12314423/The-Coutts-Farage-dossier-bank-admitted-ex-Ukip-leader-DID-meet-commercial-criteria-used-tweet-Ricky-Gervais-trans-joke-Novak-Djokovic-ties-decide-odds-position-inclusive-organisation.html

ToWhitToWhoo · 19/07/2023 17:47

There is a difference between refusing a person an account because of some disagreement and refusing to bankroll a campaign to which one objects.

I suspect that Farage is deliberately blurring the line between the two.

If you think that banks should not be able to refuse to fund campaigns, fine, but then you lose your right to object if they fund Extinction Rebellion/ Just Stop Oil/ Stonewall/ the Communist Party/ etc.

RedToothBrush · 19/07/2023 17:48

Farage remains a grifter and dangerous.

Hth.

Moneynewpence · 20/07/2023 20:35

Summer2023hasarrived · 30/06/2023 17:06

So the story goes that if you have a view on Brexit or LGBTQ?+ that isn't inline or in agreement with the people that know what view is right at The Yorkshire Building Society then they can close your account?

AIBU - stick to the day job and provide mortgages and savings

YABU - they can decide if the values of their customers don't align to shut them down

It's made up victimcosplay by people with repellent views.

EuripidesEumenides · 20/07/2023 20:43

ToWhitToWhoo · 19/07/2023 17:47

There is a difference between refusing a person an account because of some disagreement and refusing to bankroll a campaign to which one objects.

I suspect that Farage is deliberately blurring the line between the two.

If you think that banks should not be able to refuse to fund campaigns, fine, but then you lose your right to object if they fund Extinction Rebellion/ Just Stop Oil/ Stonewall/ the Communist Party/ etc.

I'm not sure it's that clear cut. EAD Solicitors and others vs Abrams EAT 2015 found discrimination against an organisation could potentially breach the Equality Act if it's effectively a proxy for discriminating against a particular person within the organisation and by extension that person's beliefs.

FOJN · 20/07/2023 20:55

50 percentage of the population have a below average IQ. Or are just too bloody lazy to fact check. Or like the narrative because it matches their world view so don't seek an alternative explanation in case it undermines their world view.

Well this is awkward. Do we have a case of confession through projection?

LlynTegid · 20/07/2023 21:23

Whilst the government have said they will act, at least to ensure a basic bank account is available to all, and for account closures to have notice, I am not sure they will go through with it. They have on several issues been all talk and no action.

Notice they acted on the day of three by-elections, perhaps hoping to minimise their losses.

FedgeHund · 20/07/2023 21:29

LlynTegid · 20/07/2023 21:23

Whilst the government have said they will act, at least to ensure a basic bank account is available to all, and for account closures to have notice, I am not sure they will go through with it. They have on several issues been all talk and no action.

Notice they acted on the day of three by-elections, perhaps hoping to minimise their losses.

I agree this government is all talk and no baggy trousers.

MissingMoominMamma · 20/07/2023 21:33

On this premise alone, I’d open an account with them.

But I think they might have apologised to Farage??

Swrigh1234 · 21/07/2023 07:45

Oops, half the comments on this thread didn’t age well, did they.

A lot of egg on a lot faces. The workesters have gone very quiet.

Bosky · 21/07/2023 13:53

ToWhitToWhoo · 19/07/2023 17:47

There is a difference between refusing a person an account because of some disagreement and refusing to bankroll a campaign to which one objects.

I suspect that Farage is deliberately blurring the line between the two.

If you think that banks should not be able to refuse to fund campaigns, fine, but then you lose your right to object if they fund Extinction Rebellion/ Just Stop Oil/ Stonewall/ the Communist Party/ etc.

Some confusion here. There is a difference between a bank refusing a person to to have an account with them, which has a knock-on effect of them being able to have an account with any bank, and a financial institution bankrolling a political campaign.

"Bankrolling: To provide financing, whether as a loan, grant, or simply as part of a budget. For example, a company may bankroll its research and development by providing funding for it in the budget. Likewise, a credit union bankrolls a business when it allows a client to take out a second mortgage on a home"

https://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/bankrolling

It is the difference between providing finance (loan, overdraft, mortgage, etc.) and providing the most basic financial service provided by a bank, ie. an account.

Ironically, given that definition, Coutts considered whether there was justification to close Farage's account when he had paid off his mortgage. If it thought that he was going to fund a political campaign which it did not like by taking out a second mortgage then they could refuse to provide him with another mortgage at that point. Whether or not that was his intention if indeed he did seek another mortgage, he could then, if he wished, try to move his account and/or seek an alternative source of finance.

The action of closing someone's bank account seriously limits their ability to open a bank account elsewhere - to the point of preventing them from having a bank account for any reason, personal or campaigning.

Since the issue you suggest is potential, legal, political campaigning it is therefore an action that penalises a person for expression of their personal political beliefs that goes well beyond the remit of an individual financial institution. It triggers a blacklisting reaction across the financial sector that can start an avalanche subsuming families, friends, colleagues and acquaintances, it is undemocratic and possibly in breach of the Equality Act 2010, GDPR and goodness knows what other legislation and regulations.

Another example of knock-on effects is cited by Simon Heffer (the historian, journalist and author who wrote vile lies about the Hillsborough disaster so, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not a fan of Heffer either):

How I was nearly ‘de-banked’ because of my friendship with Nigel Farage
The former Ukip leader's friendships appear to have been shared right across the financial services industry

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/20/simon-heffer-coutts-friends-with-nigel-farage-debanked/

(Open access but It has been archived at Archive Today if it goes behind a paywall).

If concern about NF re-mortgaging is the real reason for Coutts closing NF's account, they do not say so. They also do not argue that allowing NF to have an account with them has actually caused them any "reputational damage". That would be difficult to argue as justification and would also open up the can of worms about who they have been happy to let bank with them and who and what they have bankrolled.

To repeat, I am not a fan of Farage.

There are some campaigns that I think are worthwhile and some that I would not support. Some are clearly bankrolled by banks, corporations, tax-payer funded grant-giving organisations and charities, some allegedly "grassroots" campaigns are astroturfed by private philanthropy, while others really are supported only by individuals with limited resources digging into their pockets.

Most people, myself included, would be delighted if Banks stopped disregarding the needs of ordinary customers to provide accessible services offline.

"NatWest Group to close 142 bank branches in 2023"
Find out if your local bank branch will be shutting its doors
10 July 2023
https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/natwest-group-bank-branch-closures-in-2023-aXUN72y5QXYk

When they treat high-profile customers with such contempt you can be sure that they are going to treat ordinary customers far worse. What really takes the biscuit is that tax-payers bailed out the Banks and the Government still holds nearly 40% shares in Nat West.

They have fucked-up big time yet again.

NatWest goof is a boon for sketchy bank clients
21 July 2023
https://www.reuters.com/breakingviews/natwest-goof-is-boon-sketchy-bank-clients-2023-07-21/

The NatWest Group logo is seen in this illustration taken March 12, 2023. REUTERS/Dado Ruvic/Illustration

Breakingviews - NatWest goof is a boon for sketchy bank clients

A row between right-wing talking head Nigel Farage and UK bank NatWest could have much broader consequences. Late on Thursday, CEO Alison Rose apologised to Farage after closing his account, while the UK government said it would force lenders to respec...

https://www.reuters.com/breakingviews/natwest-goof-is-boon-sketchy-bank-clients-2023-07-21

grannysmithspips · 22/07/2023 17:15

RedToothBrush · 19/07/2023 17:48

Farage remains a grifter and dangerous.

Hth.

I absolutely agree. Don't know why anybody has apologised to him.

Summer2023hasarrived · 26/07/2023 23:18

grannysmithspips · 22/07/2023 17:15

I absolutely agree. Don't know why anybody has apologised to him.

I think they apologised to him because they were wrong to:

  1. release his private information
  2. to release incorrect information to the BBC
  3. to close an account because they don't like his views (not illegal views)

I think that's why they apologise. That's also why the head of Coutts Bank resigned. That's why the story is running. Some people may not like the source of the original story and therefore rubbish it, however, it turned out to be true.

OP posts:
Summer2023hasarrived · 26/07/2023 23:25

cakeorwine · 04/07/2023 19:18

Farage may have lied. As for the others claiming similar practices including the vicar because he complained about the number of Pride flags? Who knows. There are a number of people now reporting similar problems with banks

But your thread clearly states that people are being closed down because of their views?

You read something, it obviously pushed a button inside you, and you reacted and decided to start a thread claiming that this had happened.

It's easy to do. It's easy to read something, take it as truth, especially if it appeals to your beliefs and to spread it.

It appears that banks really do close accounts for the reasons Farage claimed. The head of Coutts has apologised and resigned. He is milking it now because what he said was true.

@cakeorwine you say it is easy to take something as truth and if it appeals to beliefs then spread it as truth. Well it WAS true. Some people just assume things are fake because they don't like the person who states it happened. It appealed to your view and you ran with the narrative that he must be lying.... 😂

OP posts:
WorldCuppa · 27/07/2023 00:04

Yorkshire Building Society today declined to comment on the case but a spokesman said: 'We do not close savings accounts based on different opinions regarding beliefs. We would only make the difficult decision to close a savings account if a customer is rude, abusive, violent or discriminates in any way, based on the specific facts and behaviour in each case.'
YABU for believing anything that crock of shite writes.

PatientZorro · 28/07/2023 10:24

ilovesooty · 30/06/2023 17:17

This is hardly going to apply to average people not in the public eye.

Clickbait.

Except of course that it has been happening to ordinary people not in the public eye

ResisterRex · 28/07/2023 11:12

It has been happening to ordinary people:

www.jamesesses.com/p/exclusive-evidence-reveals-big-bank

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-12340459/CRANE-CASE-vulnerable-laws-got-debanked-HSBC.html?aids

If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything. The SAR on Farage shows they had no reason to debank him, other than they didn't like what he said in public.

Do you think free speech is important or not? Do you think banks have the right to decide whether they like your personal views or not? What happens once we've all be cowed into never saying the wrong thing, think it'll stop there? Of course it won't.

There is now reportedly a 10,000 strong FB group of people considering submitting their own SAR. Those take a few weeks so this story could run and run.

Think it couldn't happen to you? It could. If I had SM accounts, I'd be closing them and requesting all my data was scrubbed under the right to be forgotten.

ResisterRex · 28/07/2023 11:19

Also happening to pressure groups

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/28/gina-millers-political-party-bank-account-to-be-shut-monzo/