Forcing child to be affectionate to non-custodial father they don't like

[BestPapaEver]

I don't know if I'm out in left field on this, but something that bothers me immensely is that my daughter forces my grandchildren to be affectionate toward their non-custodial father when they don't want to be. The kids are 5 and 8 and both have begun to figure out their father isn't what they want him to be.

The father could be the poster child for narcissism and while he might have some small amount of affection toward the 8 year old since he was the first born and a son, love in the truest sense is not what he shows either child. He promises things he never delivers on and a host of other bad behaviors. He will tell them he will come to their events at school and never shows. Pretty much how he always was. He was very abusive with my daughter, both emotionally and I believe physically. The day he was tossed out he did something she won't tell me that prompted her to see a doctor the next day to make sure my unborn granddaughter was ok. I suspect he pushed or hit her causing her to fall, or maybe even punched her in the stomach. I suspect the latter since she also discussed what happened with the state police, but failed to push it further.

Anyway, I've have for all intents and purposes have become their father. I do all the things their father should be doing. I encourage them in every positive way I can, attend all the events and functions they are involved in (dance, baseball, music lessons, school plays, etc.)

So, what has happened as they've gotten older is they are realizing that as much as they want to have a father like they see other kids have, it's becoming painfully clear to them he just isn't it and I know he never will be. His ego gets in the way of him truly being able to love anyone other than himself and they are sensing this and little by little are starting to pull away from him. However, as is always the case, they are forced to see him even when they have no desire. They are also starting to be non-affectionate and he sees this as an insult to his self-serving ego, which 'inspires' him to harass my daughter and threaten to take the kids with the logic that someone just has to be bashing him when he's not around. While no one talks favorably about him, no one is bashing him in front of them. In fact, I tell them they should not be disrespectful and just go along to get along.

The big issue though is that because their mother has a fear of him, she forces the kids to be affectionate, tell him they love him, tell them their father didn't say or do something bad when they say he did, allows them to be in a car with him even though he drives too fast and dangerously (which they've told me scares them), etc. I believe in their minds this is in direct conflict with teaching them to be honest and not lie, encouraging them to stay away from people that make them uncomfortable, not openly talking about their feelings for fear of being shut down or dismissed. They will very often tell me they're afraid to talk to their mother about things they don't like about him, even though at times I sense they are unsure about whether they should tell me things.

I really feel that their mother is so afraid of this guy that she is willing, no matter how wrong she knows it to be, to throw her kids to the wolves in order to avoid conflict with him.

I was about to ask why she's in contact with him at all, but you answered it, OP, with her being afraid of him. I wish I had some advice. He sounds like the sort who would ignore an intervention order even if your DD was able to get one.

She's teaching them survival skills. Pandering to a narc to keep yourself safe is not wrong.

They have to see him, they have to learn how to survive him. That's to keep your opinions hidden, your feelings your own, and tie the line. When they are safely independent they can stop.

Seriously the best way to help them is to make sure they understand at an age appropriate level what they are doing.

I grew up with a narc parent. I wish someone had told me to play along, but remember it's just a play.

I don't believe teaching them survival skills is what she's really doing, knowingly or otherwise. What she's doing is the same thing she did when they were married and that is protecting herself from his bullying. The easy way is to go along to get along. The problem with this is he maintains control of her and her emotions. This is of course what a narc wants, but at some point one needs to take back control for the sanity of themselves and their kids.

I realize they have to see he, or at least for the moment. However, on the other side of the coin is the reality that she needs to grow a set and take control of the situation. More often than not, he dictates what time he's going to show up to see them and how long he will stay. She needs to stop that and she has every right to do so. I have evidence of how he drives with them in the car and she knows about it. She has every right to say they simply will not be in a car with him. We know he manipulates them with the things he say when the kids are alone with him, so she needs to minimize their alone time with him. But it takes some intestinal fortitude to have the courage to stand up to him and assert her position as the authority.

The good part is she has final say. There is no court mandated schedule or conditions for visitation other than he cannot take them out of state. She doesn't allow overnight stays and even though he's floated the idea, he has no place for them to sleep. The couch or air mattresses is not appropriate accommodations.

My problem is the emotional and mental developmental damage done over time by forcing them to feel a certain way about things that conflicts with what they are feeling. Worse, chastising them as if they did something wrong if they don't play ball. She and the father are guilty of this. Her because she wants to avoid an altercation. Him because he thinks he deserves the affection.

Now let me add the part that brings fear to my heart. When my daughter was pregnant with my granddaughter, he lobbied hard for abortion. My daughter refused and as I mentioned in my first post, he did something that I believe was an attempt to 'terminate' that pregnancy regardless of how it was done. He wanted no part of any of it. Never once inquired about the unborn child, never a how are you feeling, nothing. The day she was born he was strutting around the hospital like the perfect father. Ok, those of use that have dealt with narcs know this would not be at all unusual. However, I firmly believe at this point he would be happy if this child was not in the world simply because she is costing him in support payments. I don't know that he would purposely hurt her, but there is no doubt in my mind that if she was in a deadly situation he would not rush to rescue her.

Yes, after knowing him for as long as I have, I really do believe he is that kind of person.

Ok, well you have information we don't.

There are ways she can take control but equally men like him can be extremely dangerous when crossed.
You call it giving in to bullying. I see it as toeing a dangerous line between being a doormat and trying to stay out of trouble.

No one can teach the kids how to feel. You can teach them camouflage, so they stay out of trouble in dangerous situations.

If you are sure she can refuse him access with no repercussions, then maybe you are right.

However it's equally likely that he'd take her to court, put her through hell, get court mandated contact and she'd be no better off. Just broke.

It's also possible that he'd hurt her and the kids rather than let them go. There's nothing rational about it.

If she plays it well, she may manage to keep him sweet until he's bored and loses interest. That's the ideal outcome.

Are you sure she doesn't know what she's doing? Is it possible you are also trying to control her, though with good motives?

Based on what you've said, your daughter is a fucking superhero.

Let's sum up what she's been through:
▪︎ Left a narcissistic husband
▪︎ Left a man who emotionally and, probably, physically abused her
▪︎ you also think he tried to kill her baby while she was pregnant
▪︎ is a single parent to 2 young children
▪︎ Has managed to set boundaries with her ex - no overnight stays
▪︎ has to deal with constantly being harrased and bullied and is still afraid of him.

I know I wouldn't be able to cope with all of that, would you?

Is she a perfect parent? Probably not.
No-one is a perfect parent.
We're you a perfect parent to your daughter?
Didnt you ever fuck up?

Forcing her children to be affectionate and getting them in a dangerous car isn't great.

But the whole tone of your posts is bothering me. As her father (I presume) you should be her no.1 cheerleader. But you are coming across as another man who is chastising and criticising her.

On the whole, yes I do think you are being unreasonable.
I think you are being unreasonable to expect your daughter to parent with 100% perfection.
With help, support, understanding and confidence, she will get there.

I wish your daughter all the best.

It's a tough one as in an ideal world kids wouldn't have to pretend affection but I agree with @minou123 that you're being very hard on your daughter who is in a bind. When you're physically weaker than someone abusive, standing up to them isn't a question of "intestinal fortitude' but of survival. Family courts have taken a very hard line and removed kids following accusations of parental alienation so treading carefully is important. Rather than blaming your daughter, drop the judgement and think what you might be able to do to help her to feel safe to push back in the most important areas.

From your posts, I am guessing you are in the US?

I urge you to spend whatever money it takes to get your daughter into the best therapy you can find. The children need therapy too.

Then you need to spend whatever money it takes to hire a family lawyer and discuss the situation. Find a good lawyer - one who practices mediation in divorce cases as opposed to one who will urge the all gund blazing approach - and ask for a realistic assessment of what your daughter could achieve through establishing visitation or seeking an end tonthe contact.

Sadly, if you're in the US, regardless of his failings, you and your daughter and the grandchildren will be stuck dealing with this man until the younger child turns 18 or he loses interest. The question for the lawyer is - is it better to have an ad hoc arrangement with a narcissist or to turn everyone's life over to the family courts until the youngest child turns 18?

Be aware that he is setting you all up for a charge of parental alienation. I think your daughter may suspect this and is trying to avoid such a charge at all costs. There are therefore pros and cons to getting a visitation schedule in place.

The pros are that your daughter won't be subject to the whims of a narcissist and will do what the court orders when it comes to visitation. Or so the optimist in you may believe...
Fwiw, unless this man has lost his license due to his driving, he will be allowed to have the kids in his car. Unsafe driving of all kinds, running stop signs, playing fast and loose with seat belts - unless he is getting pulled over every time, his driving is a case of 'eye of the beholder'.

The cons are huge - the narcissist can try to assert to the post divorce court as the mother is alienating the children from him. This can result in a motion for contempt of court, which can be incredibly distressing, hard to fight, and jail or loss of custody can be ordered by the judge.

Any visitation agreement will involve clarification and delineation of the rights of both parents when it comes to medical care decisions, including whether the children can go to therapy to deal with the impact of their fathers personality disorder on them.

It will also involve delineation of the rights of both parents over choice of school, extra curricular activities, social life of the kids when they are teens, part time jobs of the kids when they are teens. Does your daughter want to have to sit down with her ex and discuss whether the kids can do a school sport or join the marching band?

Speaking from personal experience of being abused through post divorce court by my vindictive narcissist exH for nine years (three separate motions for contempt of court) I urge you to tread very, very carefully.

The important thing for your daughter is to try to maintain a relationship with the children in the face of the narcissistic behaviour of the father. The mother and children need to do therapy together.

I think you and your daughter need to do some therapy together too. I get a sense that you are pushing solutions on her that are not feasible for her right now. I am not faulting you in any way for this - you are truly an angel in her life and in the lives of the children.

But she is in a very vulnerable position. Do not underestimate the effects of dealing with a narcissistic, abusive man. Your daughter is very likely suffering from cPTSD and a massive amount of anxiety.

Don't press her to take action. Poking the bear isn't always the way to go with a narcissist - you may find that the family court will let your daughter and the children down very badly. You can see the massive problems here, but be warned thst there are very few judges who have the slightest idea about the deviousness and cunning and sheer evil of a narcissist.

I wish you all well. Please get the mother and children into therapy.