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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that probate is taking too long

126 replies

GeraniumGirl · 18/06/2023 14:35

My dear Grandmother died in October.

Her estate was very simple because she had already sold her house and moved into a care home.

A solicitor is the executor but there is still no sign of probate.

I know that it was taking a long time for probate to be granted last year but looking at the probate search online it doesn’t generally seem so long now.

Does anyone have any recent experience of probate times for simple estates?

AIBU to think that the solicitor is dragging his heels?

OP posts:
Sunnnybunny72 · 27/04/2024 16:01

My mums probate was granted in four weeks exactly. 2016.

Musicaltheatremum · 27/04/2024 16:08

GeraniumGirl · 27/04/2024 14:17

Still waiting for the solicitor to distribute the funds….

They should pay you interest. We had interest paid on my mil estate from when confirmation granted until distributed. I think this could be legal to do so.

worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 16:10

GeraniumGirl · 27/04/2024 14:17

Still waiting for the solicitor to distribute the funds….

Totally normal.

Within the six months after the Grant, people can make claims against the estate. Most firms wait 10 months to be safe. They have to do that, as if they don't, the executor will be personally liable.

Every institute takes forever. HMCTS take forever. HMRC take months to clear off tax calculations. You need to be patient.

worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 16:11

Musicaltheatremum · 27/04/2024 16:08

They should pay you interest. We had interest paid on my mil estate from when confirmation granted until distributed. I think this could be legal to do so.

No, statutory interest will be included in the final distributions. Any interest generated by the estate, and any other income above £500, needs to be included in an income tax calculation for the administration period, which then needs to be cleared by HMRC.

Honestly, private client solicitors have enough on their plates without being nagged about things that are not their fault. HMRC are useless, most institutions are still working from home. Banks are notorious for sending the funds in the account, and not providing date of death balances & evidence of income pre and post death. The executors need this or they will be personally liable to HMRC.

LiveResult · 27/04/2024 16:16

I remember your original post OP as I was in a similar position - simple estate as no property to sell. Eventually took 14 months for probate. And now we are over a year since probate and still waiting for funds. Solicitors are really taking the mick.

hope you don’t have long to wait

worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 16:19

LiveResult · 27/04/2024 16:16

I remember your original post OP as I was in a similar position - simple estate as no property to sell. Eventually took 14 months for probate. And now we are over a year since probate and still waiting for funds. Solicitors are really taking the mick.

hope you don’t have long to wait

No property doesn't mean it's simple.

Shareholdings, bank accounts, bonds etc., can all be in an estate. If a grant was needed, it's a higher value estate.

Honestly, if you think solicitors are that bad, train as one, and put up with clients etc.

LiveResult · 27/04/2024 16:31

Fair enough, I should have said that we aren’t waiting for property to sell rather than using the word simple. But I would appreciate your views on the reasons for it to be taking so long. 13 months now since probate. There were shares but my assumption was that they would have been sold earlier on

worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 16:38

LiveResult · 27/04/2024 16:31

Fair enough, I should have said that we aren’t waiting for property to sell rather than using the word simple. But I would appreciate your views on the reasons for it to be taking so long. 13 months now since probate. There were shares but my assumption was that they would have been sold earlier on

Share companies are useless, often lose forms etc., and then just deny ever receiving them. Some share companies refuse to sell until the shares have been changed to the executors, that can take months.

NS&I receive all post to Sunderland and scan it onto their system by hand. Takes forever.

HMRC are working on a six month lag, due to working from home & COVID. If the shares produced income/a gain, again this needs clearance. HMRC are the worst offenders. If you call, 9 times out 10 they will refuse to talk to you.

DWP will wait months before investigating and realising there is a possibility they are owed money. It can even be done after the estate has been finalised.

Edit to add - these are just the ones that affect every estate. One company will only permit shareholder forms to be submitted in German, which can take months to sort.

GeraniumGirl · 27/04/2024 16:41

LiveResult · 27/04/2024 16:16

I remember your original post OP as I was in a similar position - simple estate as no property to sell. Eventually took 14 months for probate. And now we are over a year since probate and still waiting for funds. Solicitors are really taking the mick.

hope you don’t have long to wait

Sorry to hear you are in the same position @LiveResult.
It does seem scandalous that solicitors can get away with this. In my case, there was no property or shares, just cash in a savings account which was paying for her care home so the estate really couldn’t have been any simpler.
We have been told that distribution of cash will be another 3 months time so it will be over 21 months since she passed away.

OP posts:
worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 16:42

GeraniumGirl · 27/04/2024 16:41

Sorry to hear you are in the same position @LiveResult.
It does seem scandalous that solicitors can get away with this. In my case, there was no property or shares, just cash in a savings account which was paying for her care home so the estate really couldn’t have been any simpler.
We have been told that distribution of cash will be another 3 months time so it will be over 21 months since she passed away.

It does seem scandalous that solicitors can get away with this.

Get away with what? Following the rules, and ensuring they are not held personally liable?

If it was that simple you should have asked the executors to renounce and done Letters of Administration yourself.

Tukto · 27/04/2024 16:45

MeridaofClanDunBroch · 27/04/2024 15:27

My mother died in February last year, probate came through in the October and hopefully the disbursement will be done early next month.
Very straightforward estate with only two beneficiaries in the will.

That's a scandal unless they've been waiting for a house to sell it should be possible to distribute within a month.
While it's true that all the places holding funds need chasing, the fact is that it's never a priority for solicitors whereas if you do it yourself you can be on the case.

GeraniumGirl · 27/04/2024 16:46

worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 16:42

It does seem scandalous that solicitors can get away with this.

Get away with what? Following the rules, and ensuring they are not held personally liable?

If it was that simple you should have asked the executors to renounce and done Letters of Administration yourself.

The obvious answer is that we would have done it ourselves if we had known how long it would take the solicitor to do it.
Why is it so much quicker for lay people to sort out their relatives estates than it is for professionals?

OP posts:
worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 16:48

GeraniumGirl · 27/04/2024 16:46

The obvious answer is that we would have done it ourselves if we had known how long it would take the solicitor to do it.
Why is it so much quicker for lay people to sort out their relatives estates than it is for professionals?

Because lay people ignore the things such as the 10 months post-issue to see off claims. They don't bother to calculate income tax and contact HMRC, they don't post notices in the papers to ward off claims. They don't follow the proper procedures because they don't know and don't bother to protect themselves. They apply for the grant with rough figures, collect in and distribute.

worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 16:48

Tukto · 27/04/2024 16:45

That's a scandal unless they've been waiting for a house to sell it should be possible to distribute within a month.
While it's true that all the places holding funds need chasing, the fact is that it's never a priority for solicitors whereas if you do it yourself you can be on the case.

Edited

See my other posts - no they can't.

Zebedee55 · 27/04/2024 16:49

I contacted the probate Service because it was taking so long, and was told so many people are working from home that it’s holding up the whole process.🤷‍♀️

Musicaltheatremum · 27/04/2024 16:51

worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 16:11

No, statutory interest will be included in the final distributions. Any interest generated by the estate, and any other income above £500, needs to be included in an income tax calculation for the administration period, which then needs to be cleared by HMRC.

Honestly, private client solicitors have enough on their plates without being nagged about things that are not their fault. HMRC are useless, most institutions are still working from home. Banks are notorious for sending the funds in the account, and not providing date of death balances & evidence of income pre and post death. The executors need this or they will be personally liable to HMRC.

That's what I meant...you put it much clearer though...I was typing whilst in the car 😁(passenger!)

shoppingshamed · 27/04/2024 16:53

GeraniumGirl · 17/11/2023 16:23

Just to update. Probate was granted in September so 11 months after she died. I only found that out from the probate search as there was no word from the solicitor. I asked them for an update and they say that they should begin distributing the residue within the next month. So the whole process for a very simple estate will have taken 14 months. I guess if they have the funds in their bank account then it will be racking up interest for them.

The money won't be racking up interest for the solicitor unless they are totally dishonest. They aren't allowed to keep clients money in their own bank account, the interest is yours or whoever inherits

BirthdayRainbow · 27/04/2024 16:55

GeraniumGirl · 18/06/2023 15:12

Thanks. It has only been 8 months so I should probably give it until October before chasing it up then.

Given how disrespectful your solicitor has been I'd email again if no reply I would go in and ask to speak to someone else. He thinks he can ignore you.

worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 17:03

Lets take a very simple estate. Person dies on second death (therefore they received the whole inheritance tax exemptions from their spouse, and have a combined nil rate band of £1,000,000).

They have a small estate. A house, some savings, a few small shareholdings and interest bearing savings accounts.

On the date of death, most people are not thinking about contacting a solicitor. They will go and register the death in the few days post-death and start on the funeral.

Any good solicitor will advise to wait until the funeral has passed before undertaking any real administration steps. These days, that's taking 3-4 weeks. You're already 1 month post-death by the time you see the solicitor, realistically.

The solicitor will then need to see ID of all executors, a death cert etc. they will then begin preliminary investigation into the estate. Sorting through all the deceased's paperwork, writing to all institutions. The turnaround from banks etc. is running to be 4-6 weeks at this point. You need to obtain date of death figures (which for some reason, banks hate to provide!).

You need to notify the DWP, and work out all of the estate assets. By 2-2.5 months post death, you're beginning to get a picture of the estate.

You need to obtain house valuations, ensure all shareholdings are accounted for. Realistically, a professional executor will obtain a financial search. This can take another 8 weeks.

You need to prepare all IHT forms and send those off.

It takes 6 months, generally, to be in a position to apply for the grant. The current MINIMUM wait for a grant is 16 weeks. Realistically, when the IHT clearance etc. is factored in, it's a 24 week wait for the grant.

In the meantime, all that can really be done is checking if smaller bank accounts will release funds. You can forward funeral accounts and get those paid, but while you're waiting for the grant there is little that can be done.

While you're waiting, shareholding values are fluctuating. House prices may be increasing, interest will keep accruing. Banks will not update you, you have to wait.

It takes 5 working days once the grant has been approved for it to be received. At this point, you can begin marketing the property (and all the joys that come along with a property transaction). You now have a 10 month time period in which people can bring claims against the estate. If the executor was to distribute in this period and someone brings a claim, they will be personally liable for the cost of this claim, should it succeed.

You then write to all banks, obtain balances and calculate any taxes. You may need to file corrective IHT accounts if assets have changed value and you're owed money back. Income tax & CGT must be calculated.

Banks take months to come back, to release funds. Any insurances etc. can take months. Institutions are completely unhelpful. They will refuse to release funds multiple times, because they can.

It takes months (usually around 6) to get to the point of applying for HMRC clearance.

12 months post-death you apply and then you're in the hands of HMRC. It can take them months to come back. They do not answer calls. They do not co-operate in the slightest.

All the while, you have clients calling you up on a daily basis asking for an update, when there isn't one. Clients will tell you to chase HMRC, when it can take hours to get through to them. Are you going to pay me 6 hours worth of my hourly rate to be told they're awaiting processing of your forms, and it'll take as long as it takes? No, I didn't think so.

It's not as simple as apply, get, distribute. Professional executors are bound by many more rules than lay executors. You're asking solicitors to break their rules so you get your money sooner. Yes, it's frustrating for you that the money is tied up, but it's frustrating for us too when there is quite literally nothing we can do about it.

adviceatthislatestage · 27/04/2024 17:16

DM died mid Feb and I've just applied cor probate via gov.uk.

I did it myself, after being quoted £3500 for what the solicitor said is a fairly straightforward estate. (Id been to collect her original will)

After submission, I received an acknowledgement email which advised probate was taking around 16 weeks.

Hope your situation gets sorted soon xx

SchoolQuestionnaire · 27/04/2024 17:19

worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 17:03

Lets take a very simple estate. Person dies on second death (therefore they received the whole inheritance tax exemptions from their spouse, and have a combined nil rate band of £1,000,000).

They have a small estate. A house, some savings, a few small shareholdings and interest bearing savings accounts.

On the date of death, most people are not thinking about contacting a solicitor. They will go and register the death in the few days post-death and start on the funeral.

Any good solicitor will advise to wait until the funeral has passed before undertaking any real administration steps. These days, that's taking 3-4 weeks. You're already 1 month post-death by the time you see the solicitor, realistically.

The solicitor will then need to see ID of all executors, a death cert etc. they will then begin preliminary investigation into the estate. Sorting through all the deceased's paperwork, writing to all institutions. The turnaround from banks etc. is running to be 4-6 weeks at this point. You need to obtain date of death figures (which for some reason, banks hate to provide!).

You need to notify the DWP, and work out all of the estate assets. By 2-2.5 months post death, you're beginning to get a picture of the estate.

You need to obtain house valuations, ensure all shareholdings are accounted for. Realistically, a professional executor will obtain a financial search. This can take another 8 weeks.

You need to prepare all IHT forms and send those off.

It takes 6 months, generally, to be in a position to apply for the grant. The current MINIMUM wait for a grant is 16 weeks. Realistically, when the IHT clearance etc. is factored in, it's a 24 week wait for the grant.

In the meantime, all that can really be done is checking if smaller bank accounts will release funds. You can forward funeral accounts and get those paid, but while you're waiting for the grant there is little that can be done.

While you're waiting, shareholding values are fluctuating. House prices may be increasing, interest will keep accruing. Banks will not update you, you have to wait.

It takes 5 working days once the grant has been approved for it to be received. At this point, you can begin marketing the property (and all the joys that come along with a property transaction). You now have a 10 month time period in which people can bring claims against the estate. If the executor was to distribute in this period and someone brings a claim, they will be personally liable for the cost of this claim, should it succeed.

You then write to all banks, obtain balances and calculate any taxes. You may need to file corrective IHT accounts if assets have changed value and you're owed money back. Income tax & CGT must be calculated.

Banks take months to come back, to release funds. Any insurances etc. can take months. Institutions are completely unhelpful. They will refuse to release funds multiple times, because they can.

It takes months (usually around 6) to get to the point of applying for HMRC clearance.

12 months post-death you apply and then you're in the hands of HMRC. It can take them months to come back. They do not answer calls. They do not co-operate in the slightest.

All the while, you have clients calling you up on a daily basis asking for an update, when there isn't one. Clients will tell you to chase HMRC, when it can take hours to get through to them. Are you going to pay me 6 hours worth of my hourly rate to be told they're awaiting processing of your forms, and it'll take as long as it takes? No, I didn't think so.

It's not as simple as apply, get, distribute. Professional executors are bound by many more rules than lay executors. You're asking solicitors to break their rules so you get your money sooner. Yes, it's frustrating for you that the money is tied up, but it's frustrating for us too when there is quite literally nothing we can do about it.

At this point, you can begin marketing the property (and all the joys that come along with a property transaction).

You can market a property before probate has been granted. You just can’t proceed with the transaction.

It’s very interesting to see that many of the delays are due to the executor being a solicitor. One would think that it would be a smoother process with a professional but with more boxes to tick that clearly isn’t the case.

worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 17:21

SchoolQuestionnaire · 27/04/2024 17:19

At this point, you can begin marketing the property (and all the joys that come along with a property transaction).

You can market a property before probate has been granted. You just can’t proceed with the transaction.

It’s very interesting to see that many of the delays are due to the executor being a solicitor. One would think that it would be a smoother process with a professional but with more boxes to tick that clearly isn’t the case.

It's not recommended due to the state of the housing market and probate delays. It's a MINIMUM of 16 weeks, not a guarantee.

The delays are because the professional executors follow the rules, and lay executors don't bother (i.e. with the HMRC clearance).

Teentaxidriver · 27/04/2024 17:34

A family member died more than two years ago and a Leicester law firm have yet to distribute the estate.

Teentaxidriver · 27/04/2024 17:36

You would not believe the excuses. Probate granted last year, money collected in and then lots of nonsense about accounting to HMRC. At the end of my tether.

worrieddaughter97 · 27/04/2024 17:38

Teentaxidriver · 27/04/2024 17:36

You would not believe the excuses. Probate granted last year, money collected in and then lots of nonsense about accounting to HMRC. At the end of my tether.

Would you rather they didn't account to HMRC and you become liable for the unpaid tax?

They have to. Everyone has to.