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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why are mental health services in the UK so utterly shit?

195 replies

Whichwhatnow · 17/06/2023 23:08

Trying to get mental health support this week after multiple suicides of friends and other issues. Nowt out there available. I'm lucky, I can pay. But how does someone on benefits or NMW pay for therapy?? Surely this should be a basic support element of the NHS?

OP posts:
Sunnyfeelgood · 18/06/2023 13:21

SquirrelSoShiny · 18/06/2023 13:17

That's a really good post.

Oh thanks! I say it as someone who has MH problems, spent ten years hoping MH services could fix me and felt they were withholding something from me. Realised I had to do the heavy lifting, did it (over another five years) and then retrained as a psychotherapist!

Definitely no where near 'fixed' if that is even a thing... but am able to get through life with much less hassle. The hardest thing for me was realising the burden of responsibility was on me, this felt unfair, but once I accepted it, things started to turn around.

Seymour5 · 18/06/2023 13:37

Has the growth in population added to the underperformance in some parts of the NHS? Money that could go to essential services is being reduced by spending that was unheard of ten years ago.

Whilst we have immigration to thank for the many professionals working in healthcare, the cost of processing, feeding and housing the hundreds arriving weekly who can't work must impact on public spending. Surprised its not been mentioned or maybe I missed it.

I was born around the time the NHS started, over 70 years ago. People of my age were far fewer in those days. Medical intervention has lengthened our lives. As we live longer we need the NHS more too, expensive care, bed blocking etc.. When DD graduated in general nursing, we went to the ceremony about 12 years ago. Only two of her fairly large cohort graduated in psychiatric nursing. It seems there are many reasons why mental health services are suffering.

I hope a change of government next year will have the hoped for outcome. 🙏

Seymour5 · 18/06/2023 13:39

@Sunnyfeelgood good post.

CrazyHedgehogLover · 18/06/2023 13:43

My husband has been suffering with mental health problems since we lost our daughter at 29wks (in 2019) we didn’t have the full length of the bereavement midwife she came about 3/4 times before Covid and lockdown happened which meant we didn’t see her in person, over the phone wasn’t the same as having someone to speak in person with and I felt it was very rushed on the phone.

my husband these past few months have been having awful dreams about the circumstances we faced when losing her (very unexpected I had a midwife appointment the week before and everything seemed fine and healthy) went in for reduced movement and we found out there was no heartbeat.. my husband has flashbacks and nightmares about it and wakes up in cold sweats!

he has tried contacting the doctors for help for the past few months and all they offer is over the phone appointments. All they offer is medication and different ones each time which don’t help tbh!

my husband requested he see someone in person as he wants to speak to someone properly about the situation and he feels it would help him by speaking to someone in person about what is happening, the doctor actually said to him “we don’t offer in person appointments for mental health, only if you was experiencing suicidal thoughts could we then book you an in person appointment”

I was disgusted! My husband said why should it take someone getting to the point of feeling like they want to end there own life for the doctors to actually see someone in person!?

we’ve complained however I have little hope to receive anything back!

something needs to be done for the mental health services! Also tho doctors/GPS need to actually start seeing people in person rather then over the phone, it’s very dangerous to think something can always be diagnosed/spoken about over a phone..

GottaGirlcrush · 18/06/2023 13:46

JamSandle · 18/06/2023 11:03

I dont think there is any good country to be mentally unwell.

Noone seems to have cracked how to treat it properly.

I think this often!

All the money in the world...still there is no solution

behindanothername · 18/06/2023 13:49

We had huge challenges too, my husband is on a waiting list which is over a year long for CPTSD, childhood trauma and disassociation which has me looking at any other option possible as our marriage won't survive that long. He is on his 3rd round of CBT which is utterly not useful for him considering the issues he has.

I was diagnosed as autistic at 37 after years of depression, imposter syndrome, perfectionist tendencies and late teen suicide attempts. When diagnosed they literally go, yes you are, here is your piece of paper and off you go. No mental health support or anything when many of us coming to a late diagnosis have CPTSD, have been victims of sexual abuse or other forms of abuse and have to come to terms with understanding ourselves and the impact that has on us.

I have 2 children who I have been struggling to get any form of support for them, both ND, one with SEMH needs, between the NHS and education systems, I am on my knees fighting battles that I have been fighting for years.

The NHS is under so much pressure, my family all work within it, but right now it is failing me and my family so badly I can't be anything but angry and upset.

Sunnyfeelgood · 18/06/2023 13:50

@CrazyHedgehogLover

Have you self referred to NHS Talking therapies (previously known as IAPT)? They offer treatment for PTSD which it sounds like your DH may be experiencing. Obviously I can't comment on the wait/quality.... but there should be provision that maybe your GP is unaware of or is gatekeeping. Luckily you don't need your GP to refer, you can do it yourself. Find your local service here: https://www.nhs.uk/service-search/mental-health/find-an-nhs-talking-therapies-service

I am very sorry for your loss.

Find an NHS talking therapies services - NHS

https://www.nhs.uk/service-search/mental-health/find-an-nhs-talking-therapies-service

OriginalUsername2 · 18/06/2023 13:59

GottaGirlcrush · 18/06/2023 13:46

I think this often!

All the money in the world...still there is no solution

In reality we have to take more personal responsibility right now. Change comes from within. Even a top clinical psychologist will not solve a persons mental health for them.

Youtube and Amazon are flooded with books and videos by qualified professionals for those that aren’t in immediate crisis.

For the general population, reading and journaling would help massively. I do appreciate most people are kept far too busy to have time for this, but those who can would really benefit.

Howpo · 18/06/2023 14:33

roarfeckingroarr · 18/06/2023 11:28

Are all the anti Tories here volunteering to pay more tax themselves, or is it just "rich people"?

We used to pay less Tax and got a better service.

Prevention would help as would not shooting ourselves in the foot with a policy like Brexit.

What we ve done by cost cutting is give us all a worse service that ends up costing more, Austerity will be shown to be one of the worst policies ever, yes we needed max 5 years but not the 10 we got and now returning too, do they never learn?

Unearned income though will need to be taxed more than it is.

CrazyHedgehogLover · 18/06/2023 14:46

@Sunnyfeelgood thank you so much for that link! Will definitely have a look with hubby later on to see, my husband tried asking the gp for therapy but they explained the waiting list was extremely long (completely understandable).

They did say to him on the phone he’s struggling from PTSD and depression/anxiety, he feels like everytime he calls up they just put him on different medication which doesn’t seem to be helping now, just makes him feel zoned out.

thats been a great help tho so thank you!

Zebedee55 · 18/06/2023 15:06

Howpo · 18/06/2023 08:34

@Zebedee55 It's most certainly something new, the level of care and support is pretty much non existent now.

My sympathies are with you of course, so, about 20 years ago, i lost my partner in an accident, i was seen immediately, long appointment, got medication and the wait time for support was 3 weeks, not great, i went private but considerably quicker than 8 months.

My relative has had MH episodes before now, last one about 12 years ago, always got prompt in patient care, not now, no beds, no staff.

I didn't say it hadn't got worse, but it's always been underfunded.

As well as underfunding, there's also the point that so many people want counselling/therapy now, which wasn't so much the norm years ago.

Doctors seem to use this as their "cure all" solution sometimes. Easier than them trying to help I suppose.

I didn't need or want counselling, as talking at someone won't bring my husband back. If I want to talk, I've got friends and family.

Grief is a natural process which anyone bereaved has to do. It's normal, as is a lot of stress and strife we go through.

All I wanted was a couple of weeks worth of sleeping tablets, but her answer was counselling, even after I'd said I wouldn't be doing it.

I don't know the answers, but it's not all about funding. As another poster pointed out, there are self help books, strategies etc. which might help some people.

maranella · 18/06/2023 15:13

There are shortages across the health service in all disciplines and there aren't enough MH doctors, nurses and therapists.

Add to that massive increased demand - particularly since the pandemic.

Add to that the fact that everyone expects to see a doctor RIGHT NOW and isn't prepared for any kind of wait.

And add to that the mind-numbing lack of resilience that huge numbers of people now demonstrate. The answer to almost every query on MN is 'have counselling/see a therapist' and that's what people expect. They encounter difficulty or misery or adversity, which is a normal part of anyone's life, and they expect to be able to access support, for free, at that moment.

But there isn't sufficient supply for everyone to be able to do that, so it has to be rationed to those who REALLY need it or who can afford to pay.

Zebedee55 · 18/06/2023 15:21

maranella · 18/06/2023 15:13

There are shortages across the health service in all disciplines and there aren't enough MH doctors, nurses and therapists.

Add to that massive increased demand - particularly since the pandemic.

Add to that the fact that everyone expects to see a doctor RIGHT NOW and isn't prepared for any kind of wait.

And add to that the mind-numbing lack of resilience that huge numbers of people now demonstrate. The answer to almost every query on MN is 'have counselling/see a therapist' and that's what people expect. They encounter difficulty or misery or adversity, which is a normal part of anyone's life, and they expect to be able to access support, for free, at that moment.

But there isn't sufficient supply for everyone to be able to do that, so it has to be rationed to those who REALLY need it or who can afford to pay.

I agree. Some stress needs dealing with by sorting out the problem. If it's marriage, job, debt, whatever - dealing with the problem will ease the stress (from experience).

Some need the heavy input of MH services, but, as you say, it means others have to sort out their own problems, or pay.

off · 18/06/2023 20:55

MH services in the UK are shit for so many reasons, but top of the list has to be money-saving on a scale not even seen elsewhere in the NHS, year on year, decade on decade, whittling away at every part of provision, because of an assumption that nobody who really matters will notice too much if mental health services disappear.

Hospital/inpatient care is now all but nonexistent. Beds have been reduced repeatedly, for decades.

Even after the (necessary but bodged) "care in the community" de-institutionalisation programme of the early eighties, the number of psychiatric beds left by the late eighties was four times what it is now. And compared to the early 2000s, just twenty years ago, we have half the psychiatric beds we had then.

That's not because the need is less. We have some different drugs available now, but the old ones were pretty much as effective as the newer ones, just with different side effects. There have been no revolutions in therapy. People now get seriously unwell and impossible to keep safe or effectively treat at home, just like they did in 1988, or 2002. The difference is that there are only a quarter of the beds of 1988, or half of 2002.

There's an argument that people recover better in their own home than in hospital, but even back in the late eighties, people generally weren't having psychiatric inpatient treatment unless they really needed to. Home treatment teams visit people at home as a (cheaper) alternative to going into hospital, to check on them and give them drugs. But if you ask anyone who's either been seriously mentally unwell themselves or had a seriously mentally ill loved one, and who has experience of the HTT, it can feel frighteningly inadequate and unsafe, with extreme reluctance to escalate to hospital admission, and an eagerness to discharge from the service. It can also be intrusive and embarrassing having mental health workers visiting your home.

As well as a reduction in beds, there seems to be a reduction in staffing for those psychiatric inpatient beds that do still exist — often wards seem to be unable to find enough staff, though they might full spaces with bank or other temporary staff, who often don't know the ward or the patients. Even fully-staffed, there often don't seem to be enough of them to operate a ward safely or therapeutically (not least because the smoking ban meant patients often have to be individually escorted if they want a cigarette…). And this might come across badly, but because of attempts to plug shortages by recruiting abroad, many staff on some psychiatric wards were trained abroad, and some seem to face significant cultural barriers to interacting therapeutically with patients. Not that staff ward cultures were always particularly therapeutic anyway… and bad ward cultures seem to get passed on to new staff and perpetuated, especially in stressful, high-pressure environments created by current funding and staffing issues.

With so few beds available, every bed is always filled, so even a fully-staffed ward has staff working full-tilt, every day. And they're more difficult patients to look after than in the past, too — every patient in every filled bed is a patient who would have been one of the 25% most severely ill on a late-80s ward. This makes wards more stressful for staff, leading to burnout, and more stressful for patients, making it harder to get better.

Another effect of slashing bed numbers like this, meaning practically every bed is filled all the time, is that there's no slack in the system. As well as resulting in unacceptable numbers of out-of-area placements, having no slack in the system makes it nigh-on impossible to run single-sex wards even if there was the will to do so. (This will doesn't actually exist, with the main argument being that mixed-sex is better for socialising patients to society, as though we're discussing one of those historic mental hospitals that attempted to create a microcosm of society, with multiple-month stays as standard.) Even if you have two identical general adult wards for an area, you can't make one male and one female unless you always happen to have just the right number of extremely ill male and female patients, and a bed always opens up on the right ward for your patient's sex. With no slack, people have to go where they'll fit. (And no, the "single-sex accommodation" on psychiatric wards isn't remotely the same. It's barely worth the paper is written in IMO.)

An expectation that stays will be short, for crisis stabilisation only, results in what has felt to me like a dramatic reduction in psychological therapy, occupational therapy, meaningful activities, or any real therapeutic input at all. It also means that people are discharged when still extremely unwell — and we know that discharge from hospital is one of the highest-risk periods for mentally ill people.

So where do that other 75% go, who would've been on a psychiatric ward 35 years ago? They can't go to the day hospital, which used to provide a weekday programme of activities and therapy for people with serious mental illness who didn't need to be in hospital but would benefit from the routine, from the opportunities for social contact, and from the therapeutic input. Those have pretty much disappeared.

Maybe some will be under HTT, but only in extreme crisis.

The community mental health team will carry some of these cases, but they've been cut to the bone. 20 years ago, my CMHT had something like a consultant psychiatrist, two other psychiatrists, and a trainee psychiatrist, as well as at least a couple of psychologists, and of course psychiatric nurses, psychiatric social workers, and other staff members.

Last time I was under them, my CMHT had merged with a neighbouring one so probably double the catchment area, but still only had one consultant psychiatrist, and had other staff actually reduced — I think only one other psychiatrist, and as far as I'm aware other staff similarly cut back.

The CMHT will therefore try to discharge back to the GP at the first possible opportunity, even if you're still quite seriously unwell.

That's if you even managed to be successfully referred in the first place, which isn't easy. There's likely to be a barely-qualified staff member reading and rejecting most of the referrals from qualified and concerned general practitioners, who are aware that the patient's needs are beyond their expertise. Get past that, and the next gatekeeper is likely to be a nurse, who will chat to you and may well decide the GP can manage you just fine. If you're lucky you might get to see a psychiatrist, but probably not a long enough appointment for a proper psychiatric assessment. And good luck accessing psychology through a CMHT these days — the few that are left seem to spend much of their time doing assessments, maybe for specialist therapies run by another part of the Trust, which of course have their own gatekeepers, and their own lengthy waiting lists.

In the past, people might be kept under CMHT for many months or even years. Sometimes even if they were well and didn't need to see anyone they were kept on with the CMHT, just to keep them in the system and give them a softer landing into services if they became unwell again. This is now framed as a bad thing.

Now? If you're no longer actively and imminently suicidal, or no longer struggling with terrifying command hallucinations, or whatever your most extreme symptom was, you're likely to be discharged to the GP. They might give you a leaflet or two, or recommend you investigate local charities, drop-ins, or, in my area at least, the local Trust's laughable "recovery college" (a patronising "let's play pretend" mishmash of crappy groups, the very occasional useful psychoeducation course, and general fob-offery run in random rooms of random public buildings, aimed at those who in the past would've received actual treatment for their serious, chronic mental illness).

Some people in this position — still unwell, but discharged/refused by CMHT — will try and get help through IAPT (I think they're called NHS Talking Therapies now, but IAPT is quicker). They might be refused because IAPT assesses them as being too severe, too complex — essentially, that IAPT can't manage them and CMHT is more appropriate. This is one of the biggest cracks people seem to fall through.

Or they might be taken on by IAPT, and of course dealing with people who would've previously had help from the CMHT puts pressure on a service that was designed to provide psychological help for those with simpler mild-to-moderate problems (which, don't get me wrong, are still horrendous to live with, but have different treatment needs to things like bipolar disorder or cPTSD). At the same time, IAPT is experiencing intense pressure from the other side of things, with increased public awareness and various societal pressures resulting in huge numbers of people either self-referring or being referred by the GP.

And in the meantime, when people can't get IAPT treatment, can't get CMHT treatment, can't get day hospital services, can't get long-term specialist psychotherapy, can't get inpatient treatment, they have to fall back on the GP. Who is already drowning under all the other shit that gets dumped on GPs. Or go to A&E.

I haven't even talked about more specialist inpatient provision, ED services, neurodevelopmental disorder assessment (increased public awareness, strong gatekeeping, ludicrous waits) and support (pretty much absent) for adults and children, LD services, or other areas I don't have much personal experience of.

Basically, it's shit because

  • successive governments have been taking bites out of it for decades and telling services to make do, because they know most people don't care and won't notice until it affects them
  • we haven't worked to counter the decades-long "less is better" narrative about psychiatric beds and ongoing psychiatric care for those with mental illness
  • many of those left working in services have nothing to offer people, have unhelpful attitudes, are totally exhausted, or all three
Swrigh1234 · 18/06/2023 21:00

Why do you think OP? Because there is no money. Because this country has been living beyond its means for 25 years with an ever smaller number of taxpayer and 6 million on universal credit. Because what little non existent money was left got spend on govt corruption and furlough during Covid.

Whichwhatnow · 18/06/2023 21:10

Swrigh1234 · 18/06/2023 21:00

Why do you think OP? Because there is no money. Because this country has been living beyond its means for 25 years with an ever smaller number of taxpayer and 6 million on universal credit. Because what little non existent money was left got spend on govt corruption and furlough during Covid.

It was more of a bit of a rant than a genuine question! I'm fully aware of the state of politics and finances in the UK and as stated above, I'm a long term Labour party member, a higher rate tax payer and contribute significantly to charity.

Was just having a rant because I was so disappointed at the lack of care. But that's as much about me being upset at the state of society as about my personal situation.

OP posts:
Swrigh1234 · 18/06/2023 21:31

A rant is justified, rant away.

Boomboom22 · 18/06/2023 21:38

I think your point is not only about public services but private too as you can afford and are paying for therapy but finding it not helpful.
Yes many find emdr very helpful with situations like yours as it is fairly unconscious. It helps you re learn normal responses somehow. Very different to talking therapy.
Worth switching to try it.

If you have been offered a refuge you should take it or leave yourself if you want more control. If external agencies this your husband is abusive he is. Your own judgement may be muddled though. It sounds like you half believe he is desperately trying to help you and half that he is abandoning you. Does he hit you? If so leave.

Are there kids involved? If you hold down your job you must be strong and capable. Maybe pretend your life is a task not your own? Plan out options. Try to take control. But also take each 5 minutes as it comes. You can do this.

Megeyhi527 · 18/06/2023 21:58

off

Wish I hadn’t read your post, it’s terrifying when you have children who are ill.

off · 18/06/2023 22:15

Megeyhi527 · 18/06/2023 21:58

off

Wish I hadn’t read your post, it’s terrifying when you have children who are ill.

If it helps, it's over twenty years since I had any personal experience of CAMHS, so what I've written applies pretty much only to my experience of adult mental health services. And I think CAMHS universally goes up to 18 now, too (I was moved over to adult services at 16)?

Megeyhi527 · 18/06/2023 22:15

My kids are now under adult services.

Quisquam · 19/06/2023 10:00

There's an argument that people recover better in their own home than in hospital, but even back in the late eighties, people generally weren't having psychiatric inpatient treatment unless they really needed to. Home treatment teams visit people at home as a (cheaper) alternative to going into hospital, to check on them and give them drugs. But if you ask anyone who's either been seriously mentally unwell themselves or had a seriously mentally ill loved one, and who has experience of the HTT, it can feel frighteningly inadequate and unsafe, with extreme reluctance to escalate to hospital admission, and an eagerness to discharge from the service. It can also be intrusive and embarrassing having mental health workers visiting your home.

Having experienced the Crisis Team, I’d say they are useless! A different person comes every time, so there’s no continuity of care - the patient has to go over their story and answer the same questions every time. They push drugs, because they can’t offer anything else - which don’t address the problems of complex trauma! They make stupid suggestions such as

“Is there any friend or family, who can help?”

When anyone with some common sense would have asked family or friends for help 10 years ago? Who are you going to ask - frail parents in their 80s and 90s; siblings with MH problems of their own…..People have busy lives of their own these days!

IMO, some people would recover better if they had some peace and quiet; respite from a situation they can’t cope with?

I found it bizarre that professionals like social workers, psychologists, etc wrote report after report about how our family was in an intolerable situation and was likely to implode; but the CMHT refused to give one of our DC any respite from the situation, saying they needed to learn to cope with it - when the literature reports families suffer anxiety, grief, major depressive disorders, post traumatic stress and PTSD. The divorce rate among parents is up to 75%! It was Kafkaesque!

Alexandra2001 · 19/06/2023 10:12

Quisquam · 19/06/2023 10:00

There's an argument that people recover better in their own home than in hospital, but even back in the late eighties, people generally weren't having psychiatric inpatient treatment unless they really needed to. Home treatment teams visit people at home as a (cheaper) alternative to going into hospital, to check on them and give them drugs. But if you ask anyone who's either been seriously mentally unwell themselves or had a seriously mentally ill loved one, and who has experience of the HTT, it can feel frighteningly inadequate and unsafe, with extreme reluctance to escalate to hospital admission, and an eagerness to discharge from the service. It can also be intrusive and embarrassing having mental health workers visiting your home.

Having experienced the Crisis Team, I’d say they are useless! A different person comes every time, so there’s no continuity of care - the patient has to go over their story and answer the same questions every time. They push drugs, because they can’t offer anything else - which don’t address the problems of complex trauma! They make stupid suggestions such as

“Is there any friend or family, who can help?”

When anyone with some common sense would have asked family or friends for help 10 years ago? Who are you going to ask - frail parents in their 80s and 90s; siblings with MH problems of their own…..People have busy lives of their own these days!

IMO, some people would recover better if they had some peace and quiet; respite from a situation they can’t cope with?

I found it bizarre that professionals like social workers, psychologists, etc wrote report after report about how our family was in an intolerable situation and was likely to implode; but the CMHT refused to give one of our DC any respite from the situation, saying they needed to learn to cope with it - when the literature reports families suffer anxiety, grief, major depressive disorders, post traumatic stress and PTSD. The divorce rate among parents is up to 75%! It was Kafkaesque!

A relative is in a MH hospital now and whilst the care at home and the expectation on family members to "step up" was awful, i cannot blame the staff, they are pulled in all directions and have severe resource issues.

So we ended up with a situation where the patient was deemed to be sectionable & at risk of harm to themselves and others, left at home with Grand daughter only to provide 24/7///

When eventually a bed found, they have jumped through hoops to avoid a section order because that means they'll be in hospital for far longer, however, its reached such a crisis point where this will now happen.

We ve a family friend over from Australia, he is helping out as he has extensive experience working with the mentally ill over there, they do not have the issues the UK seems to have but as he says, many of the HCPs he works with are ex NHS who have moved there in recent years, one of which is my DD, the numbers leaving the NHS is huge but no one cares.

passenger89 · 29/08/2023 11:31

Hey, I'm sorry if i'm not supposed to be hear, being male and not a parent.

I just got off the phone with a GP after having a telephone appointment booked when I asked if I could be referred to a therapist or psychiatrist. The doctor didn't even know my history with depression, who I was or even what the call was regarding. Not only did it all feel incredibly uncomfortable, she sounded like she didn't even care. Maybe it was the accent, I don't know.

Anyway, I am supposed to contact "Healthy Minds" and speak to them for some techniques or something. I used to do a bit of meditation in the past, I can tell you that a bit of deep breathing isn't what I was hoping for in terms of treatment for what I feel are some deeper underlying issues.

passenger89 · 29/08/2023 11:33

*here

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