Can I refuse ?

[lucie333]

Little summary - I've been doing my care job for 6 months now. rota for 4-9/10 o'clock at night. I was told at interview that I wouldn't be finishing that late as I could do everything I needed at visits and move on to next and be done by 8:30, exactly what I have been doing. My last patient I get to at 8 o'clock & he's kicked off a big fuss about my timing saying I'm far too early- he doesn't go to bed I'm just here to assist him into pjs and give meds, he can't leave house so he sits and watches telly until he wants to go to bed. My boss has asked me to ask me to wait in my car till 9 o'clock ( I won't get paid) I've refused- I've reminded her what I was told at my interview. Am I being unfair ?

@BarbaraofSeville absolutely I asked them to add 2 extra visits on so I'm not waiting for an hour and half they said "it's fine"

I've got to know my clients a lot l, the ones who love to chat I always stay for the 30 minutes. But sometimes at bed visits they just want to be left alone with their cuppa and the tv, I tend to know this when they aren't talking back much or want me to put them to bed otherwise I absolutely stay and talk to them.

OP

Have you checked what your hourly rate would be taking into account travel time

So total pay / total hours including travel time

Is that over minimum wage? Would it still be Over minimum wage if you waited half hour in the car ?

If yes they can certainly ask
If no then they would be breaking the law - they don't have to pay travel time or sitting around time
Also check you get reimbursed for travel costs

Sorry ... they don't have to pay travel / sitting about time ....but the total paid must at least equivalent to minimum wage for the whole period

So you are working currently 4-8.45pm 4h45mins
they are wanting you to extend that to work 4-9.45pm 5h45mins

for '4hrs' pay.

NMW is £10.42 an hour.

So to be legal your 'hours pay rate' would need to be £12.38/hr if you work 4.45hrs or £14.98 if they expect you to do 5.45hrs. I'm guessing you're getting £10.42... £11 at best? for your 4hrs.... in which case you are being exploited.

I would refuse. As others have suggested they can add in more visits to the gap or shift him to someone else. But they are relying on you giving in as it's simply easier for them. They don't care about the impacts on you. Oh and make sure you claim if you go over the 30min visit... another way they are taking advantage.

Care work in this country is so poorly respected.

I did homecare many moons ago, jacked it in after 6 months as I could do 15 hour days and get paid for 8 of those. Not just that, 5 mins to get from one side of a city to another between calls anyone?
OP have you looked on your local councils jobs page? STUST, Re-enablement teams or Carephone Responder? My local council pays an hourly rate (enhanced rates too) AND mileage. It's not half as stressful either.

Split shifts even with several hours in between are always a massive pain; but your boss is probably trying to justify it that you have an hour and a half of your own free time, to do whatever you want. It's 'fair' in his eyes, when it's you having to do it; but as has already been said, if somebody asked him to hang around unpaid for that much deadtime, he'd be incandescent.

Are you paid until 9 though? If that's what your contract says them they are correct.

Also imagine being an old person (who is actually paying for this service!). Being out into his PJ's at 8. He isn't a baby

@lucie333 it doesn’t matter if other people are happy to have bed visits at 6:45, he isn’t. And of course he has ‘kicked up a big fuss’- he is a human being who wants to have some agency over his life- exactly like you! You don’t want to hang around for an hour unpaid, he doesn’t want to hang around all evening in his pyjamas and quite possibly have to go to bed earlier if his medication makes him sleepy.

He isn’t the problem, your employer is. You should absolutely be paid travel and wait times, and if your contract says you set your own hours then they should give this client to someone who wants to work later.

Ditto

She's not - she's said repeatedly that shes only paid for the jobs she does, not to sit around in her car for an hour twiddling her thumbs.

OP, you should be being paid for travel time between clients. That is part of your work. The agency is likely breaking national minimum wage legislation by not paying you for travel.

We don't know if the agency is breaking minimum wage rules or not

If her total wage / her total work time including travel is greater than NMW then they are not breaking the law

My mother has carers come in 3 times per day. Her bedtime visit at the start was between 7 and 7:30. We "kicked up a fuss" because her medication had her asleep by 8:30 and she was away again at 6am. Yet the morning visit didn't happen until 9am meaning she was lying waiting for hours before she could get up and dressed.

It affected her mental health and she was feeling helpless. The carer was really pissed off with us and mum felt even worse. We now pay a private carer to come at 9pm to put her to bed.

Please please sort this out with your employer. Do not allow the patient to see how annoyed you are. It is his home and his life and he must be able to maintain his dignity.

(For the ritually offended, I'm offering advice and perspective not assuming the op is behaving in any way)

So sorry your mum had to experience this. I'm in no way angry with my client, the problem isn't going to him for 9pm I'd happily do that if they added 2x extra 30 mins visits in-between so I was getting paid but they have refused! They want me sitting in my car for 1.5hrs

I’ve worked as a carer in the past and know how hard it is. I fully agree that pay and conditions need to be fair, and that carers aren’t given enough time.

However, the clients are the top priority.

Both of my parents have Dementia and have carers organised by Social Care but fully paid for my parents who are self funding.

Some carers are brilliant, some are careless and completely unbothered, not at all suited to the work.

My Dad only needs to be prompted to
take tablets in the morning which takes seconds, but the minimum time we can have is half an hour.

Some of the carers were furious because I’ve insisted they stay for the full half an hour and find something to do, even if that’s just making him and mum another cuppa and chatting.

My parents are entitled to all of that time being used for them.

If you are at work you need to be paid. Its their choice, pay you for the hour you wait or you go in as you arrive.

Would it be possible to start your whole shift later, so that you don’t have the wasted time?

I really feel for the client and completely understand that he doesn't want to go to bed early just so you can get home.

The company should not be sending staff out ridiculously early so they don't have to pay them the extra 2 hours they should probably be paying them for

No company should say to someone in interview - you finish at 10 but we'll let you go at 8.

Poor company and I feel sorry for the clients.

He doesn't go to bed at that time, I only assist him into night wear, it's not that I don't want to go at that time it's more I don't want to sit for an hour and a half unpaid, would you? I've said I'm more than happy to go at 9 if they add more visits in-between so I get paid

Can't you ask for another carer to deal with this client? Do a swap maybe?

Hi OP, have you looked at your actual working hours (including all travel except your travel to your first client and away from your last one) and calculated your true hourly rate? Is that above the national living wage (assuming you are over 23) which is £10.42 an hour currently?

Effectively you are being paid for piece work if you are just paid per visit. If that is the case then employers can't set start and finish times for the purposes of minimum wage legislation, if they do then you are paid for time work and need to be paid per hour worked including travel time. Either way minimum wage legislation needs to be complied with but the rules are slightly different.

If you are being paid above NMW after you've taken all those factors into account then it is unfortunately something you will just need to either find a mutually agreeable solution between you, the client and your employer or try and find another job if it is not working out for you.

I had this with a different job. We got paid a set amount choose how long it took. This was the case whether we had one hour between jobs or 3. I started picking and choosing. I’m with you op. I’m not prepared to wait around for 2 hours unpaid.
The boss is now shouting out for more staff. Until they start to pay a decent wage then it’s a no from me.
He isn’t paying for the service so I don’t think he should be picking and choosing. Unless the op can have the gap filled with another client.

So you think the OP should just sit in her car for an hour and a half and not be paid for it?