to think that children shouldn't have to give their ethnicity when filling in library surveys?

[bookwormmum]

Not sure if this is going to post twice as I hit the enter key by mistake!

My dd took part in a children's activity in the local library today, making their own decorated truck which ties in with the exhibition in the branch library, of the Grand Truck road that runs through India/Pakistan.

Dd duly completed her colourful truck and was presented with a children's survey form to complete by the librarian. She whizzed through it until she came to the last question which asked her ethnicity. Cue one confused daughter. She had no idea what ethnicity meant although perhaps it was the word itself that threw her (I was trying to work out a way to explain it myself having spent the past seven years saying that everyone was equal regardless of where they were born or what colour their skin was). I can see why they want to know which people in the community are taking part in these events but on the other hand, I resent being pigeon-holed like this and I often refuse to state my ethnicity. Children are children IMHO. Does it matter if they're Asian- British, Asian-European or Asian-other?? To pick the first three examples of the list - there were about 20 categories .

Surely it's to everyone's advantage if they know the ethnic makeup of their members? If for example they noticed they had a growing number of Chinese they would perhaps devote some of their budget to books covering Chinese issues. Etc etc. I am sure they are criticized when they don't have the kind of books people want but they have a budget to stretch and it must help them to know in which direction they need to stretch it.

I agree with Kaballie. I know it can feel awkward, or prying to be asked, especially when we are trying to teach our children that the colour of our skin or religion etc doesn't make any difference. However, the fact remains that many services funded by taxpayers (of every ethnicity) are often being underused, or aren't reaching certain sections of the community - so are effectively failing them. This plainly isn't fair. I personally think it's fine if a library is trying to make sure it's outreach is, well, reaching everyone it should. I think the problem is when the questions read so out of context. I'd like to see, next to ethnicity, something like "What interested you about this activity?" and "Where did you hear about it?". It would help the public understand a bit more where the question was coming from.

Sorry but I don't think we should be teaching our children that the colour of someone's sskin or their religion doesn't make any difference, because of course it does! I think we should be making sure our children understand differences if we want them to be accepting of (and interested in) others.

My experiences as a white middle class woman with a christian upbringing are very different to friends from different backgrounds (male, female, rich, poor, working or upper class, immigrant or native, different generations etc) and my outlook is different to friends who have strong faith -probably more relevant than the actual faith, but someone with a spiritual Buddist type outlook will approach the world differently from someone who is more literalist.

These are all interesting things to explore with children I think and help them to understadn the world.

That's well put Nooka - I think probably everyone would agree with that - the problem is there are so many people who still operate on a racist level, so you can't hope for them to celebrate the richness and diversity of different cultures etc. That's a fine sentiment for sane people, but for the many, many ignorant people out there, even the concept of being treated equally is too much for their prehensile brains to get to grips with.

it probablyhas to do with where the finances go and there will be a council report that annouces that the activities in the childrens libary were a success ti=his year reaching 45% ethnic minority which (they may add - i am only for effect) is 20% over last year and meets with targets set at th beginning of last quarter.

See, but if its about funding and different groups, then simply ticking a box in my case would be even more confusing.

Me - White/Other (Australian, but soon to be British)
DH - Well, his race is Chinese (I also note Chinese is different from Asian on the forms), but he was born in Australia, only speaks English, and has no real ties to a 'Chinese' culture apart from a love of Chinese .
DCs - Mixed other (depending on box) - but both are British

So that's why I don't like filling the boxes (apart from medical forms where it could be relevant)

I meant DH - a love of Chinese food

If a library or other service is being used by the community in general should it matter if it is not used by a particular minority?

So long as we are not actually excluded I can't see why it matters.

If they aren't accessing it ebcause they aren't aware or have the right information then yes, of course it matters.

Upwind - I think you have missed the point.....what VS says. If sections of community feel for whatever reason that the library isn't somewhere for them because run by a bunch of middle aged white christian women, with books that don't necessarily reflect what they might be interested in, then yes, it matters. Or if library has spent a load of cash on books that might interest xyz section of community, but has not managed to communicate effectively to that section of community what it has to offer them, then yes, it is a problem.

Oh, I do think it is good that they should try to fill the needs of different sectors of the community.

What I would like to see though is some sort of explanation of what ethnicity means. Is it race? Or is it which group the individual was raised in? Or is it your country of birth?

The poster who suggested the ethnic boxes are for people 'who do not come from here' seems unaware that a very large proportion of the Asian and Black community are peope who were born in this country; some black families have been here since the 18th century, so they are more 'from here' than the Queen.

I notice that some of the boxes seem to (possibly) refer to culture (Chinese, Irish) whereas others definitely refer to race (Black), so it does look like whoever thought out these questions was a bit muddled themselves.

I have absolutely nothing against questions of ethnicity- I just wish somebody would explain what they mean!!!

I can't I'm afraid. They were probably made up in 1970 and no one has bothered to re-think them since...

cory it was me that said about people who aren't 'from here', and tbh I think the ethnic boxes are a problem too, what I meant was communities that are not from here as in don't know the way the country works, for example a fifth generation pakistani family (one whose family have been ehre for 5 generations) is probably quite aware of the library and its services etc, whereas new immigrants from say canada would not, yet they may fill out the form as 'white' and 'asian' (Depending on the options) and it wouldn't give an accurate description.
Maybe questioning whether english was a second language, how long they had lived in the community/country etc would be more accurate, but then I'm sure it would be called for being discrimantory.
I'm afraid where race and or immigration is mentioned it's often a lose-lose situation.

I have to say that this particular branch of my library service are very proactive at recruiting children and presumably by default, their extended families, to join the library service (you can also elect to go on a mailing list of events which I am on). Every year, they visit all the schools in their 'catchment area' to promote the summer reading adventure and they run after-school book clubs plus they always run events to celebrate the major events in world religons/countries. They've just had a huge workshop for Chinese New Year. Dd didn't attend that this year but in the past, she hasn't been asked to complete surveys. Maybe it's a new thing for this year. I'm just a bit concerned that having taught my daughter that everyone is equal IMHO, regardless of colour, nationality, race, religion, creed, eye colour etc, that suddenly she's being asked to decide what box she falls into on surveys. It's all rather going against my vaguely liberal ideals.

I wonder what would happen if the library held an event and then were contacted by the local paper, eg:

How did your Grand Truck Road Exhibition go?

Very well, thank you.

And was the event well attended by the local Pakistani population?

We don't know.

Did the English children in the neighbourhood learn something about Pakistan?

We don't know.

etc.

and will you be putting on any more Asian-focused special events?

Hmmm we don't know what to do about that because we don't know which countries to focus on because we don't know the ethnic makeup of our patrons. Though I did see a man in a turban last week.

.

bookwormmum, I agree with you. On the one hand we are all supposed to ignore what race (or, the politically correct term, ethnic group) someone comes from, but on the other we must make sure that everything includes all the ethnic groups.

Either we do take notice or we don't. But our government agencies want it both ways.

I don't think we are supposed to ignore a person's race. Treating people equally isn't the same thing.

It's only reasonable that a publicly funded service has some way of measuring if its services are being used by their local communities, and collecting (optional) info on ethnicity is a part of that ... I don't object to it and I thin it's a good opportunity to explain to children about things like institutional racism and how you need to think carefully about things like public access so as not to discriminate against different ethnic groups/ages/abilities. It isn't as simple as 'provide a service and everyone will use it'.

Yes, patrons expect the library to meet their needs. It just can't if it doesn't know anything about them.

Next week's thread: I am outraged because my cultural background is not represented in my library...

By anorak on Fri 22-Feb-08 15:40:38
I don't think we are supposed to ignore a person's race. Treating people equally isn't the same thing.

I totally agree, we are meant to be aware of and respect other peoples race, not ignore it, ignoring the differences is IMO as bad as racism in some situations.

I'm not ignoring people's race by wondering why it's necessary to measure it in this way. They have obviously worked out that there are Asian people in the community who may well have personal experience of this particular place or they wouldn't be running events like this (as well as enlightening other 'white' people generally)!! All power to their elbow as well for promoting culturally diverse events. It's the clumsy way children are supposed to pick out their ethnicities from a list which annoys me a tad. It is possible to be both from Pakistan/other countr(ies) by way of origin and English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish or indeed, any other country you might care to think of. The more we tell children, 'oh you belong in this box and xxx belongs in this box' the longer it will take for them to accept everyone as really equal.

Well how do you think they should get their information then? Is there a better alternative that won't be unworkable or cost too much?

Prob a vaild point, but you're talking about a public library with zero funds for designing their own questionnaires, so they'll just use a standard format.