To never want to spend time with this woman again?

[PleaseGiveMeCoffee]

It’s a friend one!

My closest friend (DF) for 15 years has a sister (I’ll call her Caroline for ease) who is 9 years younger than her and they’re usually quite close.

over the last few years DF and Caroline have had multiple fallings out, and whenever this happens DF will tell me all of the horrible things Caroline had said and done.

The most recent fall out was (again) down to Caroline’s doing, which was, in my opinion, awful. She spread viscous rumours about DF to their family, telling people that my friend had slept with the man that Caroline was dating. This is completely false, but led to DF being treated disgustingly by her family and called awful names. Caroline also told the man that my DF was head over heels in love with that DF was sleeping with 5+ men at the same time, and wasn’t really interested in him. Again, completely false, but resulted in the man taking a huge step back.

I know categorically that these rumours are made up - DF is my closest friend and we tell each other everything, and I’ve comforted her when she’s been crying due to Caroline’s behaviour.

Caroline has form for this, she will also say horrible things about her friends, the men that she’s dating, her family etc. She’s extremely two-faced behind peoples backs but is all ‘sweetness and light’ to their faces.

obviously all of this has made me feel a certain way towards Caroline - I do not take this kind of immature, awful behaviour lightly and am more than happy to draw boundaries with people.

DF on the other hand is very soft, and has forgiven Caroline. The issue is that now DF wants to plan activities with Caroline, and had invited me. I’ve said no, but not gone into the reasons why as I understand that it’s her sister and I don’t want to make DF feel uncomfortable.

I am frustrated though, as Caroline has been absolutely vile to my DF and I’m really annoyed that DF forgives her time and time again. Should I keep out of it and just continue to comfort DF when shit hits the fan yet again? Or should I tell her that I will not be spending any time with Caroline again as I think she’s a horrible, spiteful person?

Well it's her sister so of course there will be falling out, making up etc. I would just keep out of it.

You're only getting one side of the story, your friend's. Caroline might have a different story to tell. Even if your friend's story is true obviously it's her choice how she deals with her sister, apparently for your friend this isn't a dealbreaker. You get to choose who you spend time with so if you don't want to spend time with Caroline just tell your friend you don't wish to spend time with Caroline (without the need to put her sister down, just say something like "we don't click" or whatever, your friend isn't stupid and knows you, she'll know why you don't want to see her sister anymore) and would prefer it if you only do things the two of you. Of course there may be times you have to suck it up (ie friend's birthday party, hen do etc) where both of you would be invited and it would be unreasonable of you to ask her not to include her sister.

Oooh I had a v similar situation. My friend always said I was the only person she could talk to about it all because I wasn't part of the family but close enough that I knew all the people and details. It got to the point where I genuinely felt like she would come to me after her Caroline upset her, talk it all over with me, I'd comfort her and give her what she needed emotionally, then she'd feel better and forgive the Caroline. I literally felt I was facilitating this cycle.

After one incident too many I did tell her that the Caroline had done many horrible things to her, was going to keep doing horrible things to her as long as she continued to forgive and "move on" and it was becoming really difficult for me hearing someone I love being hurt over and over. I said you can't stop her being horrible to you but you can change your own actions i.e. stop spending so much time with her or giving her what she needs in order to be a cow to you. I said I love you and I don't want to keep feeling sad and stressed every time you let her back in and sue does it again. So I respect your choice to have her in your life but best time she does something really mean - and she will - please don't come to me for comfort.

You can't make your friend get off the carousel going round and round with her sister like this, but you can get off yourself.

This reminds me of parents who come to dislike some friend of their child & thereafter forever sneer at & snub the offending other child long after own child has forgiven whatever slights originally happened.

So you can't like Caroline but you can be civil & take her as you find her when she's around. That would be supportive to DF, unless you are saying you disapprove of your friend keeping a relationship with own sister. If forced to choose, DF will choose to have own sister Caroline in her life over you. Accept that.

Sometimes you have to draw red lines about exposure to relationships you can't bear to watch, but that's usually outright abusive situations. Most people wouldn't draw the line where OP described it.

I don't see a single reason why you should spend time with this Caroline and why you can't tell your friend 🤔.

Caroline is according to your friend not only a bitch but bordering on psychopathy! She sounds toxic and dangerous to relationships.

Your friend needs to know why you don't want to have threesomes - she's not a mind reader. Plus as a PP said, she needs to know that she has the power to end this cycle herself.

You have no moral reason to be drawn into this. You do not have to spend time with this Caroline. Both women need to know that there are consequences for behaviour.

I hope your friendship with your friend can continue unencumbered by this external unhealthy nonsense.

Well it's her sister so of course there will be falling out, making up etc.

I've never ever had any sort of similar falling out with my sister. How bizarre you think this is normal.

I'm not sure what I would do. I am the sort of person that wears my emotions right on my face, and I find it very difficult to be nice to be people that are horrible to people I love. I would probably have to explain to friend that I don't like Caroline because of how she's upset her, but I will be civil for her sake if she wants to come round. But I don't want to spend any extended amount of time with her.

"I love meeting you and really value of friendship, but I really don't want to spend any time with Caroline as I don't like how she treats you and think you deserve better"

I wouldn’t say anything - you might make your friend defensive. Just be busy every time they invite you. Be civil to Caroline if you see her, recognise it’s not your circus. You don’t need to be involved to this extent. It sounds like Caroline has poor MH, as most people/adults don’t behave this way. Stand back and don’t judge.

I am such a horrible person but I couldnt cope with this drama, They should both grow up! I would distance from their drama altogether

Can't you just grey rock Caroline. Any time your friend talks just say, " I don't feel comfortable hearing about her" rinse repeat. 👍

Thanks everyone!

I don’t want to make it awkward with DF and make her think that she has to choose between us, but I genuinely despise her sister for what she’s put my friend through.

@Chamomileteaplease was bang on - Caroline is a toxic person.

As I’ve been in this situation before I know what’s coming, Caroline will be invited to every outing that me and DF have. Caroline told my DF a few months ago that “she expects to be invited to everything”. I had to put my foot down with that, and told DF that I value my free time and will not be told by anyone who I can and can’t invite, and want to spend time with DF without Caroline constantly tagging along.

It’s hard as I’m only sharing a tiny bit of the story (otherwise outing, and WW3 will start!) but this woman is genuinely an awful person, and it’s frustrating that DF continues to take shit from her because she thinks she can change her and is a people pleaser (not a bad thing, I am too but I know where to draw my lines).

I think it’s okay to say to df whilst you love spending time with her, you won’t be inviting or including Caroline any longer. And stand by it. Your friend sounds bullied and afraid of asserting herself. Maybe your line in the sand will help her do the same - maybe not. If not, then back away and see her less often, it doesn’t sound remotely healthy for any of you.

ChiefWiggums - Where did I say in my post that this type of falling out was normal. Maybe I wasn't that clear but I meant that siblings are likely to be more forgiving after a falling out than friends are.