To give up (tiny) part of the garden - fence issue

[Curledupwithabook]

Name changed for this just so my previous posts don't become identifying.

We live in a old terraced house with an odd shaped garden. Our borders are all 'party' ie shared with neighbours, and this is specified in the deeds. Beyond that though, there isn't much specific information - eg the border markings aren't very exact. We know a fair amount about the previous owners through another neighbour - they had a bad rep in our town for being rich but tight with money, for context.

Our garden is on a hill so it steps down. On the right side is a long wood panel fence. Deeds specify that it was paid for & therefore owned by previous owners of our house - I can imagine they would have done so reluctantly.
Left hand side is an old brick wall. Not in the best condition, and only waist height, so no privacy from the neighbours next door..

Our house was occupied by an elderly lady before us, who didn't use the garden. It was
obvious when we moved in that neighbours on the left didn't like the change re privacy - they lent bits of tat up against the wall to block the view etc. I saw the guy in the garden once and mentioned Id be interested in some way of raising the height if they'd be interested - he said it was a good idea and to let him know.

Covid hit and delayed is looking into it. Finally got a quote - to repoint the wall and put posts and panels on top. Went round to neighbour to ask what they thought (we weren't asking for any money) and neighbour was really arsey with us - saying it was their wall, not ours. Adamant that previous owner (of ours) told them that. I asked him to check his deeds, he wouldn't. Hasn't spoken to us since. I suspect previous owners told him the wall was his so they didn't have to maintain it to be honest!

The thing is, we can't do any work without agreement. An alternative is we dig up our side of the wall garden and put a fence the whole way down. This would mean narrowing our garden by about a foot, as well as losing our 'half' of the wall (and expensive because we'd have to take out a rockery and part of a patio) But it would mean privacy, and not having the neighbours studiously ignore us when both houses are using the gardens (gardens are long but narrow so that's really obvious) But DH is reluctant as then neighbour 'wins' by getting more garden, a nice ledge for the plants and a nice fence.

I don't particularly want to do anything nice for this neighbour but I can't see an alternative. AIBU or is DH? And would anyone know if there's anything we could do to prevent neighbour from essentially redrawing the boundaries if we did this (eg later claiming that the new fence constituted the end of his land?)

Sorry didn't realise it was so long!
TL/DR - should we give up part of our garden for a fence because stupid neighbour won't agree to raising the height of a wall?

You could download his title deeds from the land registry (£5?). See what they actually say and compare with your own. Go from there, as they may say joint ownership and maintenance of that wall. I wouldn’t immediately give up a fair chunk of ground.

The other option that comes to mind is to install some wooden posts and hang a garden sail between them for privacy. Or temporarily erect a gazebo and put in the fabric panels on the neighbours side. - but these are vulnerable to wind and would need taking down and re erecting as needed.

Surely if you are right and the fence is yours, you run the risk of being on the hook for upkeep of both fences if the current neighbour moves out and someone new looks at the deeds?

I'm confident that they are shared boundaries, but that doesn't change that we'd need their agreement to do the fence. I didn't want to make my opening post even longer, but how I know this -

After he was arsey with me, every time I put any plants/pots on the wall (something we've both always done) I'd find them the next day in my garden! They're friends with the old owners (son of the elderly lady who lived there) and I heard them visiting and talking about it in the garden - after that, they stopped moving our stuff.

As I mentioned though, long thin and stepped garden. Sails or gazebos wouldn't work, ground is too uneven or has areas of stone that would need coming up. Realistically it would need to be investment for a proper fence and the associated work if we were going to do anything.

@user1477249785 not sure why that's relevant - it'd be our choice whether to maintain fencing and if we decided not to we could take it down?
I mean, we wouldn't, it's nice to have a border - presumably previous owners paid for the fence on the right because earlier neighbours weren't bothered about having one.

Why would you loose a foot to install a fence?

Is it worth getting this looked at by a property solicitor? Caveat - I have no idea how much that would cost.

I just worry that in years to come when you want to sell, there'll be trouble regarding the boundary that could scupper any sale or at the very least involve legal expense to you.

Did you make it clear to the neighbours that you weren't expecting them to give you any money? They probably refused because thought they had to pay.

I'd get the deeds so you know exactly where you stand and go from there.

I agree with your husband that I would hate to let them win but if it comes down to it, I would rather have the privacy. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.

Only you can decide how much your privacy means to you OP.

In your position I’d send him, ideally by email but letter through the postbox otherwise, with a screenshot of your relevant deeds showing that as far as you’re aware that you jointly own this. Happy to be proved otherwise etc but this is your understanding.

Explain what you’d like to do and suggest that, as it’s jointly owned, that you split the costs. He might be thinking that you’re expecting him to pay it all. We value our privacy, so I’d also mentally plan to offer to pay for it all (whilst requesting agreement from him for the work) should it come to that.

Plan C would be our own fence but it’s really not ideal.

So, he wants privacy but when it's offered, at no cost to him, he refused to talk to you?

Could you inform him in writing (and send recorded mail) you're putting up fence panels on top of the wall and to let you know by x date if he has any complaints?

@HecticHedgehog the wall is about a foot wide, so we'd lose half that + presumably would have to leave a small gap between the wall and a new fence.

@Gazelda that's what I'm thinking - I could well imagine they'd be the type to try and get something out of it. There's a few aspects of their house that they've encroached on ours (before we bought, so obviously just have to accept it but it shows they've got form)

If you definitely know the wall is half yours and can legally prove it - then fix some wooden post to your side of the wall, not on top, too the side of the wall and then fix 3foot or 4foot panels of fencing or trellis to the posts (I’m assuming the wall is 3-4ft high and assuming you cannot go more than 6ft high). Job done and no garden lost, and he may moan but won’t be able to do anything about it.

I joint own all of the fencing with my neighbours and they all refused to cough up for decent fencing. They weren't renting.
I ended up paying for the lot because I need my privacy and don't want the cats getting out.
It was sickening that I had to go and get their permission first but I did it, of course they would agree to the existing crap fencing being replaced so long as they didn't have to pay for it. I didn't lose any of my garden.
They were all financially better off than me always on cruises etc.
people can be really shitty.

To those who said it's about money - it's definitely not. When I went to speak to him what I said was -

We've got a quote for repointing & repairing the wall on our side, and for fencing on top. We'd be happy to pay for it as we've previously said, but if you wanted to get the wall repointed on your side assuming it's similar state) we could ask what the difference would be if you wanted it done?

He just started repeating that it was his wall and that I was out of order asking to do something to his wall, the old neighbours told him so and that guys great grandad built the house so they'd know more than me etc etc.

All the properties round here are party, they're old workers cottages. I could pay for his deeds but it's very unlikely that this is an exception.

I'll have a look at the possibility of attaching posts to the wall, but I'm not sure it's in good enough condition/stable enough to do so!

And he's definitely just a shitty person. Pretends to be really friendly to the neighbourhood but it's actually just nosiness. Has a flag in his garden which probably tells you all you need to know! MIL caught his wife chasing our cats with a garden hose - while they were in OUR garden. MIL went mad at them, she's quite sweary (I think they thought our house was empty, we were away but she was house sitting for us)

He can say ANYTHING but it doesnt mean its true!
And even if the old owners did say something about the fence
You are the current owners!!!

Look into getting access to council/ property deeds/ solicitor whatever..
And look up what is legally yours

Then go from there.

Dont let this man bully you in to(or out off!) something .
It could even lead to issues when he passes away and his house gets new owners.

How much earth have you got your side of the wall? Because a Willow ‘fedge ’ quickly becomes fantastic screening all summer long, plus it looks beautiful and wildlife love it.

if you’ve never heard of it, have a google.

We LOVE ours.

You can poke the whips in very close to the existing wall. It’s a cost effective alternative to fence posts, fencing and installation too.

You’d plant the whips in autumn, literally just water the ground and stab them in deeply as possibly.

I would do this. Easy and cost effective 😊

@SparklyBlackKitten I'm confident in what is legally ours, but the annoying thing is we can't change the wall without agreement because it's party! So regardless of us owning half of it, we can't do anything about it if he's not willing to concede. Even if he accepted to us that is shared, he still has the right to say no to any changes.

@Staplesonstamps ooh I've not heard of that I'll have a look! We've got lawn and then a step down and then raised beds & rockery for 3/4 of it, only a small part has patio up to the wall. I'd love something that helps wildlife as well

This is a good idea

Just because he says that Mr so and so built it, lived their longer, wrote the history book, sang the theme tune etc etc doesn’t trump what the legal documents state.
Its worth a fiver and five minutes of you time downloading his deeds to make absolutely sure of what they say/don’t say.

A fence if someone type definitely sounds as if it’s needed. Fingers crossed that hat the wall is 50/50 and you can attach some posts to it - trellis is much light and more wind friendly than solid fence panels, and with some pots of climbing clematis may just do the job. - in fact what about some posts set in concrete in some heavy big pots with trellis? Similar to those trough boxes with trellis attached? Or even those trough boxes raised up on brisk/wood legs?

So just do something to your side of the wall. Fix fence 6ft panels to it- you don't need posts for them, you can fix them to the wall quite easily. Or buy trellis and fix it to your side and grow something up it. Or attach bamboo screens to the wall so they're a few feet above the top of the wall - we did this on a couple of our fence panels for privacy.You can still grow plants underneath it then. And if he damages any of it then threaten to report him to the police.
I think you're being too nice to him- you've tried, it hasn't worked, so deal with it from your side.

Just paid for access to their deeds online, and it is very clear -

"IT IS hereby declared that the wall dividing the
premises hereby assigned from the adjoining
premises retained by the Vendor between the
points marked "A"" and "B" on the said plan drawn
hereupon shall be deemed to be a party wall to be maintained and repaired at the joint expense of the respective owners for the time being of the properties"

From 1932, so hardly news!

I think I might get the last guy out again for a quote for repointing and fixing panels on our side. Hoping the wall is strong enough for us to do that, I'd love to not have to look at their faces again!

We did look at planters but it's such a long and awkward area they're not really practical, and I'm not that good a gardener - they do look lovely though.

Regarding the deeds that's a common misconception. The deeds were written when the house was first built or the land was divided, and they refer to the situation when the first owner took possession of the land.
After that when the next owners move in, who knows whether the situation has changed.
The fences belong to whoever paid for them basically, even if they are built on the boundary or even on your land.
Finding evidence of ownership would be tricky, if the householder has receipts and/or bank statements that might help. Or a surveyor might be able to have a good guess by comparing with other features in the gardens (although expensive)
If it is their wall and built on your land, you would have to require them to remove it and then build your own fence with the outside edge on the correct boundary.
Either way it doesn't sound like a fun argument to have, but anyway my point is ignore the deeds unless you're the first owner.
Good luck!

@johnd2 really? The house was built in 1900 so this was added to the deeds 30 years later. Certainly neither current owners were the ones who paid for the wall. It's brick but it's pretty old. There is no fence on the side where the wall is (the fence that the owners of our house paid for is the other side of the garden)

The house is a terrace and if you look up at the houses and see where they join, the wall that follows underneath is half on one side and half on the other. It seems unlikely that it is owned by one half or the other.

Tbh given the neighbour is tight, I'd be tempted to fix the wall and attach posts regardless. He wouldn't pay for legal action and from his pov it would benefit him - the privacy but also they'd have the depth of the wall to put containers on. I doubt that solution would anger him, what he didn't want were posts on top of the wall.