To never want to work in a job with fixed payscales

[Middlelanehogger]

I read threads on here about (mostly government/civil service/adjacent) jobs with fixed payscales, like teachers, nurses, NHS admins, civil service etc.

I work in the private sector where you get paid depending on what you personally do in your role. (And yes, a bit based on what you personally asked your boss for in the negotiations, but at least it's marginally in your control.)

I just can't comprehend how people can deal with it. Just read a post about how Band Whatever senior teachers only get £10k more than juniors, why, "because that's the banding". So you either suck it up or quit, there's no "ask for a £10k pay rise" or however much would make it worth it to you?! This isn't how you get to market clearing rates!

Oh do not get me started on this. Five years ago I worked in an org that did fixed payscales. I made £33k+bonus and couldn’t get any further. I quit and went freelance, and last year I made £260k because I can charge what I’m actually worth to people. If you’re good at what you do, fixed pay bands are absolutely rinsing you. Avoid avoid avoid.

One of my early jobs was in private sector. I found out one of the guys on the team, senior and way more skilled than me, was on minimum wage. I was on 30k. He thought it was a fine amount and didn't know any better being recently from Pakistan. They used this guy. It has stuck with me ever since and I have always insisted on talking openly about salary and won't work anywhere that has a non disclosure rule.

Public sector ever since then and I like pay bands for the transparency but yes it leads to bad behaviour among the less motivated.

They are awful for hiring also.

I regularly get approached by other schools asking if I'd like to move. There's no incentive for me to move because they can't offer me anything I don't already have.

The transparency is great. But there are no incentives to move or do better.

What's the sex-based pay gap at your workplace, OP?

Because at mine, with bands, it's essentially zero.

I didn’t really go into my public sector role for the money so it wasn’t something that crossed my mind at the time but would say I prefer the pay scales over how arbitrary it sounds in the private sector.

Agree they're shite, I've got 20 years on my colleague, but paid the same as I'm stuck at the top of my band. Most public sector employees are just waiting for someone to retire or they drift into the next grade up if they sit through enough restructures...I'm here for the security which I flipping hate myself for, I already jumped ship from public sector in my 20s for money but got it drawn back in with kids and a mortgage.

Adding 10x the value as the person sitting next to you, and getting paid the same. Aargh. Designed to make all the smart people quit. Why would anyone think this is a good idea?

I think paybands are much fairer.

Why on earth should someone get paid more than the next person for doing exactly the same job just because they have good negotiating skills. I've got good embroidery skills - should I be paid more?

This 27% pension. Does that apply to LGPF specifically the Greater Manchester one?

With bands you can be much, much better at your actual job than the person sitting next to you, though. And still get paid the same! Ime this is really common

What's the pay gap of your industry versus mine, and what's the relative makeup of women/men in each industry?

If I had the pick of

A) getting paid more personally in an industry with a larger gender pay gap

B) getting paid less personally in an industry with fixed pay bands and no gender pay gap

I'd pick A every time!

(And you see A arising often in competitive industries where men are pushing aggressively and negotiating hard and raising the salary benchmarks overall. There is correlation)

@dividedduty really impressive! Totally agree with all

No. All that extra responsibility and no actual teaching?

This is actually wrong, I work in the public sector the longest was 18 years and recently left a job which was only 18 months but I didn't want to work full time., worked private sector for 10 years. Anyway public sector I was non Whitley for years, I will admit every time changed job/grade my employer would try to "return" me to where they thought I should be but I would always get it changed back, last job I was earning 12.5% enhanced rate.. thing is even people in the public sector think you have to stick to grades and you don't, every time I ask I am told it's not possible then they look at the rule book and realise I am not wrong.
Private sector is a pain in the arse as no job I have had has given me a rise and always given me less than I want by a long way, so I end up changing job yearly to get a pay rise which is a ridiculous waste of resources.
That said my husband in private sector as well and he gets a pay rise yearly so they are not all bad.

Ps I transitioned to agenda for change and kept my higher rate and when I returned to the NHS for covid they wanted to pay me basic band 5 and I argued it a got tip 5.. to be honest they should have paid too band 6 but I did feel that it was my duty to work at that time of crisis. But having seen the shit show of government and how much they gave a shit about public service I will ask for a 7 next time!

I don’t really care what anyone else gets paid, I just do my job to the best of my ability and cut my cloth.

My husband is the same. And that's why he gets paid less than most of his direct colleagues despite being equally or more experienced.

At least we're sufficiently comfortable that it doesn't make a big difference, but personally I wouldn't be happy working somewhere knowing I'm underpaid.

I just see it as him doing his bit to reduce the gender pay gap I guess...

Pay scales are okay when you are at the bottom of the scale but rubbish when you reach the top because unless you get a promotion, there is nowhere to go.

Where pay bands exist, they do so alongside job evaluation processes. For each role, job descriptions and person specifications are evaluated against set criteria - to determine the band.
Where people are unhappy that they are doing more than others on their pay band- is this because others are slacking off? This sounds like poor/unacceptable performance. Is it because others are sticking to their contracted hours? Is it because they are going 'over and above'? There are ways to manage and reward all of this whilst sticking with banding.
Sometimes, role creep happens and due to competence, staff shortages etc. someone can end up taking on responsibilities that, if included in the job description of a different band.where/when this happens, this should be pointed out to the line manager.
I don't think the issue is pay bands themselves, more of them not being applied properly, poor line management relating to underperformance, and lack of a corresponding bonus system

I've been in both and personally prefer a more open (and honest!) pay band elements not based on how much you can argue.
I was pretty pissed off when I found out a junior was on more money than I was as the senior and when I challenged it they said he had made a strong case..... I started job hunting the next day and handed in my notice the following month. They told me I was being unreasonable tried to offer me 5k to stay except I had secured a position at double the salary I was!

Also civil service isn't based on tenure as you put it you have to move positions to actually go up they got rid of ladder scales.

I had this once. Never got a performance related pay rise as came in at top
of band - got inflationary so pat did increase but v annoying. Had to do all the appraisals that you got judged on but no monetary outcome. There was nowhere to go w my job structure-wise but if you’re somewhere you can get promoted and jump a grade then it’s ok.

I love my pay bands.

1. I get paid well for my job so don't feel like moving or getting more elsewhere

2. my colleagues are all pretty decent, hard working types and there's no one who takes the piss. They'd be dealt with if they did. It sounds a bit twee but we are there because we want to do a good job and we enjoy it, the terms are good and it's a great workplace. Getting paid well is after that. No one who felt otherwise would have joined my organisation.

3. there's no discrepancy based on race, sex or anything else. It feels transparent and fair on that front.

4. my husband's work spends hours, and hours, and hours of working time fucking around with pay. Endless meetings about pay, bonuses, etc. Everyone whining about them. Evaluations with complicated points systems. Re-evaluations. People who whine the loudest getting more pay. Pay is reviewed once a year and it takes up at least 4 months of the year distracting everyone from the day job. And it's demoralising for those who don't get what they want.

In my workplace precisely 0% of time is spent dicking about with pay.

This happens without bands too. in fact they might be earning much more than you.

Highly paid mediocre men are not uncommon in many industries.

Well talking about people being paid for slacking off, looking at the NHS and I should think teaching also this is highly unlikely. The workload and pressure is such that you really couldn’t do the job without fulfilling your contracted and working at a high standard or if you did there would very soon be quite a disaster. I cannot think of anyone I have worked with in NHS who is not earning what they are paid!! Yes people often go above and beyond, just as people in general in society do volunteering etc but the NHS etc have a limited budget and essentially just need people to do their jobs. Going way above and beyond (as many of us do) doesn’t create extra profit for them to be able to pay us more.

The problem for teaching and nursing is a lack of pay progression to reward experienced practitioners without switching them to leadership/management.

And budgets managed in ways that create perverse incentives to schools to hire the cheapest/manage out their experienced staff.

But in many organisations, you do find the phenomenon of less competent and less hard working men being paid more than and even being promoted over women. It’s not a result of paybands, although greater transparency around pay can make inequitable outcomes more obvious.