Dog Breeders

[girlfriend44]

Aibu to ask is the only reason people breed and sell puppies is to earn money?

I know someone who shows and breeds a litter every 3-4 years to get more dogs to show, usually keeps 1 and sells the rest. The lady was horrified at the cost of puppies during the pandemic and refused to have any then because she realised that people were buying puppies because they were bored.
We are currently on the waiting list for a puppy from a different breeder, who breeds for the same reason. We met her and her bitch in October 2022 and she will probably be mated in August, so if everything works out we might have a puppy in October 2023. We are happy to wait because the bitch is beautiful and has a wonderful temperament, we are confident that the litter is being bred for the right reasons (improvement of the breed and continuation of the showline).

Someone else I know has a cross of Rottweiler, Staffy and Mastiff, it is aggressive to people and dogs but apparently it's great with her children. Plans to use it for breeding. I know where I would prefer to buy a puppy from.

Freedom your breeders sound like mine.
They are passionate about the breed. Show and research extensively to try and make the best matches. They pay for specialist health testing (cardiologist needs to do a heart test prior to mating and puppies need to be liver shunt tested.) They only breed when they want a puppy to keep.
With giants the puppies can’t be left unattended with mum for a month. Someone is always there. So any profit made pays for that time. Or goes to the upkeep of her dogs. (They live VERY well!) Plus covers vet bills etc.
It isn’t a business. It isn’t done for profit. Sometimes a breeder makes a profit. Sometimes they make a loss.

That’s a business …

I thinking a ban on dog breeders is unrealistic but what is realistic is educating the public. All breeders should be licensed by the council!
All dogs should be health tested
the kennel club need to be a lot tougher!

we are licensed “ breeders” we are very throughly checked x2 a year we show our dogs most weekends we are at a dog show we have bred two crufts placed dogs last year and have 4 homebred dogs qualified already this year. Dogs are our life we live & breath dogs both my young daughters show & compete in the junior handling competitions at shows. We are very passionate about our breed and are heavily involved in the breed clubs & trying to educate the public all our dogs are health tested to the highest of standards.

our puppies are well rounded educated healthy puppies that make fantastic pets they are bought up in our home around children and have a wonderful start we put the very best into all our dogs & puppies.
our dogs live in the house as part of our family and have the run of three acres.

backyard breeders most definitely need to be stopped! But surly regulated/ licensed home breeders is better than no breeders?

Where would health tested well bred show puppies come from?

that’s like saying a farmer shouldn’t make his livelihood from sheep or horse breeders shouldn’t have foals?

@Wildflowersinthemeadow no. It’s not. They don’t do this to make money. It’s like a hobby. It’s not a business. Or they would be having multiple litters a year to try and make money.

i don’t know what the solution is, obviously you ban breeding then in the long term you’re making breeds and breeds extinct, BUT the dog situation now is deplorable and isn’t going away anytime soon. ONE of the bigger rescues in Dublin has 157 dogs in it. 157! Their posts scream of desperation now whereas previously they were just telling you about dogs now they’re trying to really foist them onto people

Oh and an Example of the awfulness of modern day society: fb post where a rescue shows adorable puppies- tag after tag of people looking for them.

Fb post with less good looking/ older dog- comment after comment of people saying oh god hope someone takes her. People are so fickle

There is no need for "health tested well bred show puppies" they serve no purpose unlike sheep or horses.

What purpose do horses serve? These days they do pretty much the same roles as dogs- police, military, show, sport.

Surly horses are companions/ pets / pleasure animals just like dogs? I know plenty of dogs that give people pleasure & purpose. I know lots of people that socialise and throughly enjoy dog events and if it wasn’t for their dog would be at home.

Dogs don't need be selectively breeded to be companions/pets/pleasure animals. It's a sick industry. It's like what the Nazis did, trying to create the perfect Aryan person with blonde hair and blue eyes.

Don’t be daft. We have heritage breeds that are only preserved by the decent breeders. Should those who love border terriers or greyhounds have a bully mix as that is all that is in rescue?
Good breeders don’t breed often. Their dogs don’t end up in rescue. They are very careful about who they trust with a pup. And if the worst happens and the new owner can’t keep the dog then the contract says the breeder needs to be involved.

I have two Welsh Springers. They're gorgeous dogs.

I know someone with field Spaniels who breeds. They don't appeal though

Of course dog breeding shouldn't be banned, it's the only way different breeds exist. If not, there wouldn't be any control over the species. What should happen is there should be more control, people should be screened, have a financial and a dbs check before they're given a dog and every owner should have a licence. On the subject of getting a dog from a rescue, you stand more chance of adopting a child. Plus the majority of dogs at rescue centres come with one issue or another. Why should you have to take that on when you can develop a healthy, well-behaved dog straight from it's mum.

This

I don’t think the Nazis were selectively breeding blonde haired blue eyed people as companions and pets though?

And there was the little thing, obviously not a big deal really, of the mass murdering of Jewish people and other minorities too.

I get your sentiment but I don't think this works in theory.

Firstly, we tried for a few years to rehome a dog from any animal shelter around us, we were always super close and told we were fantastic candidates (young couple, good income, garden, flexible hours, provision to ensure dog would never be left alone, prior experience of training dogs and good knowledge of the breeds we were interested in and no children at that time plus I volunteer in an animal shelter with the dogs. We were passed over every single time and ended up going through a reputable breeder because we knew we wanted to have a family eventually and needed time to train and socialise a dog well in advance of that. Obviously the shelters were going with the best candidate for the dog in question which meant people who were retired, living in the country with other dogs of the same breed which is absolutely fair enough. But you can't suggest that anyone can walk into a shelter and rehome a dog if they meet the criteria. It doesn't work like that.

Next issue- most people can afford a healthy dog. Few people can afford a seriously unhealthy one and the majority of dogs coming through rehoming services now are the result of severe inbreeding and puppy farming. Its much harder to get a healthy dog from a shelter now and it's important people are realistic about their finances. Most insurers won't cover existing conditions so it's very different than having a healthy pup and them becoming ill later on.

Also, some breeds have been bred to certain unhealthy standards like inverted faces, underbites, teacup size etc. Ethical breeders are now needed to undo that damage and create more health in the breed saving the dogs from needing operations to correct the issues that come with breed standards. You can't rely on dogs from shelters for this because so many of them have poor health that you wouldn't want continued through their lineage at all.

I think the problem is that proper ethical breeding is lumped in with puppy farming and backyard breeding to make a quick buck with no prior thought or safeguarding. But it's up to the prospective buyer really to be more discerning. I know I can stand over my dogs lineage and the health of that lineage and the care that he got while with his litter, if people didn't buy from puppy farms and unethical breeders then there would be no demand and they wouldn't continue doing it.

In terms of anti social behaviour from dogs etc I think the best way to deal with that is having training / socialisation classes mandatory for licensing. I know plenty of people who bought beautiful dogs from breeders but haven't trained them properly. Thats not the breeders fault it's the owners.

The breeders of our pup breed dogs every couple of yrs and they keep their choice from the litters and they become working dogs for their farm.

There are some beautiful dog breeds that are endangered because there are so few left e.g. the Irish Red and White Spaniel. There are several others too. Standard and, especially Toy Poodles are low in numbers. If those who love the breeds, didn’t breed litters, these lovely dog breeds would die out. Do those of you who object to dog breeding feel the same way about those who breed the now rare Shire Horses, so they don’t die out. I myself am quite partial to British Orpington Hens, now rare.

Those issues aside, many potential excellent dog owners can’t just get a dog from rescue. If you have young children, it’s not great to bring an adult dog with an unknown background home to live with them. Very few rescue dogs are known to be fine with cats. Rescue organisations often have OTT rules about who can adopt. No one with children under 10, 12, 14, no one over 60, no one who works even if they have someone else to care for the dog for part of the day, or who work from home.

@Wolfiefan it isn’t me wanting to be overly pedantic but it is still a business. It may be run for reasons other than profit but that doesn’t make it any less so!

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think probably most people on this thread would agree animal welfare is the priority. That’s where it is difficult, because you have the MN approved ‘reputable breeder’ who sometimes - not always - might tick all the boxes but it’s very clinical as a set up and while the dogs aren’t mistreated in any way they are also not treated as we would our own pets.

Then there’s the ‘backyard breeder’ but they aren’t one size fits all. There are irresponsible idiots who want to make money or there are people who actually know what they are doing and they are breeding pets, not Crufts standards. Then of course puppy farms and they often masquerade as the ‘reputable breeder’ - it is scary really.

I have no doubt many breeders operate at a loss sometimes BUT if they make a few thousand from it I don’t think they are the direct descendants of Judas Iscariot. Spend it or bank it and enjoy it. But that is still a business!

I think one way of doing that would be to make getting a dog more difficult. Register all dogs, and have them chipped. Reintroduce dog licensing, and make eligibility to have a licence dependent on having completed a course in how to care for and train a dog.

Having a dog while not being licensed to do so would be an offence, as would selling, rehoming or giving a dog to someone without a licence.

And tackle the supply side, too, There could be a requirement for anyone breeding even one litter to be similarly licensed and regulated. There could be a temporary licence for the occasional "accidental" mating.

Make the fines high enough and it would be self-funding.

No-one should be able to just go and get a puppy for a few hundred quid without knowing the first thing about dogs and how to be a responsible owner, and then churn out a litter or two to make a few bob.

I think i got a very unusual wonderful breeder, but I was careful who I picked.

We have a rare breed and our breeder has been in it for 50 years. she has done it for personal enjoyment/improvement of the breed / showing.

There's only a couple of breeders in the UK of this breed and they've worked hard together to breed out any and all health or behavioural issues.
she can't possibly make any money off it with the way she raises them and the money she charges is minimal.

you do need to be on a waiting list of at least 2 years and get to know her and others who own this type of dog before she would consider selling to you. she also takes them back for free holiday boarding or if anyone is very ill for a while etc just because she loves them and stays in touch throughout all their lives.

I had to practically pass an audition with the secretary of the lakeland terrier breed club before she would give me the details of a breeder who had a litter. She wanted to know all about my history of dog ownership, where I lived, size of my garden, what access to off-lead exercise the dog would have, what I knew about training, grooming, dog health etc. And she especially wanted to know why I wanted a lakeland.

Then she gave me the number of a breeder who was due to have a litter of puppies born a couple of weeks later, and rang the breeder to let her know that I had been "vetted".

A few weeks later, we did a 450 mile round trip to pick up my first lakeland puppy, who brought endless joy to my life for the next 15 years.

Welsh springers are the nicest of the spaniels imo. They seem a little more independent of spirit than some of the spaniel breeds.

Mind you, it might be their freckly noses that really attract me. I love Irish R&W setters too - there's a bit of a theme, isn't there.

Sorry, couldn't resist doing this